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Transcript: Episode #1 - Let's Get Real

kelly1: [00:00:00] In this episode, Doug and I are discussing the Good Guy Excuse and I came across an article in Harvard Business Review back in August of 2022. The title is Stop Protecting Good Guys, and we’ll link the article in the episode key that you’ll be able to download from the Diamond Arrow group.com website so you can go check out the article for yourself. But my first reaction when I heard that was, what? No, we need all the good guys we can get in society. That was my initial thought. And then as I read the article, I realized what they were actually trying to say, and some of my initial thoughts were I had done a post called The Everyman Switched, and I switched it up with what has been said.

And I don’t know if it’s an actual quote or not, but every woman you know has. Experienced a sexual assault or know someone who has experienced a sexual [00:01:00] assault or almost experienced a sexual assault. And what I had done was I switched it and said, every man you know has committed sexual assault or know someone who’s committed sexual assault or has almost committed sexual assault.

And I remember when I created that, that switched up meme. I got sweats thinking about posting that to the Diamond Arrow group social feeds, because I was like, are people gonna understand? Are people going to,

doug1: a

kelly1: they gonna react? And then I had to second guess and say, is that true? And of course I asked my husband, I’m like, you know, would this resonate with you?

And he’s law enforcement, so he is like, you can’t really count me. I know lots of people , you know, who have, But the reaction to it was really interesting and we can get into that later. And good guys are not immune to bad behaviors, [00:02:00] so there’s that piece. And I also thought women are not immune to this protective, albeit dismissive excuse either. How about you, Doug? What were some of your initial thought?

doug1: Well, it’s interesting because I, so I hadn’t read it until just recently when you, when you sent it over to me to take a look at, and the, the, the first thing that came to mind is, it’s interesting how we use language, you know, to frame discussions, right? Because on one LA level, everybody wants to be a good guy.

And but, but nobody defines what a good guy is. Right. And, and so the language, it matters in this, this, you know, the article is talking primarily about sexual harassment, although it gives an, an example of sexism in the workplace as well. But the focus is on primarily sexual harassment. At the end of the day, it’s all about excusing poor behavior under one of a number of, of Gues.

And so I found it interesting. I went and sat down with my daughters [00:03:00] to talk through some of this as well and to get their, their view on it because I wanted to then, so what. Counterpart to a good guy? Is it a bad boy? Right? And so what, what is that language and how do we, how do we land there? And what does that mean?

Again, in, in this environment of male female relationships where sexual harassment always, you know, often comes, comes to the fore and you know, What, what, how is it utilized to gaslight women into thinking that what happened to them doesn’t matter? And we can, I know we’ve got some examples to work through as we talk about it, but it just, the first thing that struck me is we tend to want to use squishy language to allow others off the hook.

Instead of actually sitting down and going, okay, what, what, what does this mean? And how do we apply it in these situ.

kelly1: Right. And when you talked about squishy language, my immediate head, because I’m a big fan of, okay, if we do the opposite, does it hold true? Testing the theory. That’s why I [00:04:00] change the every woman to every man and squishy language. Okay, well what is the definition of an A good guy? And I like how you played that with your daughter’s bull.

Is it a bad boy? But what does that mean? That’s a very broad, it’s like when someone says he’s creepy. Well, what’s creepy? What is, there’s nothing illegal about being creepy. So if you’re gonna get really upset, what are those behaviors? And being able to articulate makes a big impact on how others receive that

doug1: And I think that’s one of the, the keys and, and you know, when we get to kind of the takeaways, talking through how to put voice. to definition of what do these mean, and learning to look for those behaviors and then define them on your own so that when the ki time comes to, to utilize them, you’re, you’re able to do that.

What does a, a good guy behavior look like? What does a good [00:05:00] guy excused behavior look like? What does a bad boy look like? What are, you know, those various things? How, how do you express what that person made you feel? when they, when everybody around you is telling you, well, that was not their intent.

Guess what, it sort of doesn’t matter what their intent was, right? That the recipient oftentimes is the primary definer of that behavior. And sometimes that results in a mis definition of what that behavior meant. And so there’s some interesting discussions to have there about what does it mean if, if, if a guy truly didn’t mean for this to come across as creepy, but it did come across as creepy.

what does he need to learn from that and what does she need to learn from that? How do you work through those things and have a safe space for that discussion to actually take place on both sides?

kelly1: I think that plays into my initial thought of good guys are not, You to bad behavior. So if, if a behavior from a guy is making you uncomfortable, [00:06:00] it actually, to your point, serves two purposes, is a, you need to be able to articulate That made me uncomfortable. And a lot of times people don’t even like verbalizing and saying that that’s a boundary reinforcement.

Most people just wanna walk away. But then what happens is then they, that’s kinda how rumors start. Well, that guy’s creepy. and people have in their own heads their perception of what creepy behaviors are. So that can cause all kinds of confusion. And again, start the gossip train. Start the gossip mill.

And I do believe there are good guys with good intentions who don’t mean to come across as creepy. But that behavior can be perceived that way. And so if you walk away cuz you’re uncomfortable and don’t give them feedback, then they don’t have the opportunity to learn that that behavior made you uncomfortable.

A and specifically which behavior and to make changes going forward. And that actually makes me think of my [00:07:00] friend. And he, I mentioned him in the book, obviously by a different name, but he came to me and said, listen, he knew what I did. He knows what I’m all about. And he said, I want, I am concerned for young females in this industry that I work with, and when we’re traveling for conferences or shows or trade shows, and it’s, you know, Hey, here’s the, the trade show day.

Now we’re having. Happy hour or social hour or you know, some sort of an event and there’s alcohol and he’s like, so I wanna make sure that they get back to their hotel safely. Whether that’s, Hey, do you wanna share a ride share? Do you wanna share a cab? Do you want me to walk you back to your hotel? You know, depending on location and all of that.

And he is like, but I don’t wanna come across as creepy. and I’m like, that’s a great point because that can be perceived as a little bit creepy. [00:08:00] And I said, the biggest thing is ask, do you want me, do you want to share a ride? Do you want to share a cap? Do you want me to walk you back to your hotel and at least make sure you get on the elevator?

And I said, and if they say no, then you need to

doug1: It’s trans.

kelly1: It might make you nervous. Doesn’t matter. That’s respecting their boundaries, and that’s what you are in control of. You made the offer, they said no, and then you have to let it go because if you then say, no, no, no, no, no. Let’s share cap or No, no, no, no, no.

Let me walk you back. Then now you’ve crossed their boundary. It’s a sign of disrespect. You don’t trust them, you don’t have confidence in them. And so that can be perceived. And again, that’s a whole nother, a whole nother episode topic I’m sure we

doug1: Transparency of communication.

kelly1: that’s the biggest thing is, hey, no, that makes me uncomfortable actually.

Thank you. But no thanks. And then respecting that is going to build your credibility in [00:09:00] that female’s or that woman’s.

doug1: No, I, I, I think it’s interesting, right? So you’re talking a little bit about transparency of communication, right? So being upfront with that, that question and respect, but. part of the issue is does that individual, the man, has he built a, a history of being transparent in his communications or has he built a history of having underlying, you know, or motives that maybe were not expressed, but felt by others and, and you know, that gets to self-awareness, right?

Are we self-aware enough to recognize these things in ourselves? You talked earlier. The possibility of, you know, good guys having engaging in bad behaviors. And, you know, taking it a little bit to a different analogy, the number of people I know who don’t think it’s speeding, that speeding is wrong if they don’t get a ticket.

Right? Or that it’s, it’s okay to stop at the stop, [00:10:00] skip stopping at the stop sign at two in the morning when there’s literally nobody around. Well, if, if that’s okay in those environments, why wouldn’t it also be okay for others to, to believe that, you know, somebody who’s generally a good guy could engage in a bad behavior if they thought that there was gonna be no consequence, right?

And so it’s, it’s just human nature, right? People will make mistakes and. You know, risks like that when, when they think that the stakes are are lower, they think they can get away with it. So we know that that’s a, a truism, right? It’s for sure gonna be the case. And it doesn’t mean all good guys are bad, it just means that guys sometimes engage in bad behaviors.

And by the way, women sometimes engage in bad behaviors, right? We’re all just humans. And so it’s finding a way to talk about this in ways that make both parties feel safe and help both parties be actually.

kelly1: I love that. And to your point, the communication. is so key. So ladies, if you’re listening to [00:11:00] this, let this be another reminder to you that it’s okay to speak up, to use your voice, to be direct to, to be very transparent about what behavior makes you uncomfortable. And it doesn’t have to be long diatribe of or ridiculing the manner.

Going off on a tangent it could be. Hey, it makes me uncomfortable that you’re insisting on walking me back to my hotel. I’m

doug1: I’ll, I’ll share an interesting story. I, I didn’t seek permission to share it, so I gotta, you know, word it the right way. But I, I have a friend who was in a multicultural environment recently, and one of the other people in the environment of male approached her and through the discussion, kind of gained an understanding that she’s not a physical touch person, and then took this on, in essence as a challenge to say, well, I mean, you don’t mean me.

And so directly asked, is it okay? Give you a hug or touch you and was directly told, Nope, it is [00:12:00] not okay. And then as you know, the, the environment and relationship progressed with other people around in a social en environment continued to you know, push those, those boundaries a little bit, all the while giving himself his own excuse, which is, Hey, I’m from X, Y, Z culture.

And it’s okay in x, y, z culture for us to, to be touchy-feely, right? And, and it is a commonly thought trope in that culture that it’s okay to be, you know, touchy-feely in it. But, but that doesn’t excuse the poor behavior express, especially when it was expressly asked and said no. Ultimately, very clear

kelly1: was clear.

doug1: to the point where later on he actually put his hand on her butt, you know, in a, in a party environment. And she immediately, you know, pushed back, said no, and then [00:13:00] reported him to kind of the, the supervisory chain in this environment that they’re, they’re working in. And it was just, it was a very specific example to me of a guy that everybody loves, thinks is a good.

Everybody knows he engages in these bad behaviors, so they all build these patterns of protection around him in order to protect themselves, and nobody wants to actually hold him accountable to it.

kelly1: right? Ugh. Listening to that does get under my skin because that is a frustration I have is working with women especially, and really anyone who might be more of an introvert or more of a shy didn’t grow up. in a very communicative family or environment. It, it’s a challenge to get to the point where you say what you want or don’t want, enforce your boundaries out loud.

It, that’s a challenge to say that, and so to know that she’s gotten to the point where she is [00:14:00] communicating that and then it still doesn’t get, it’s taken as a challenge to your. And that’s where I think sometimes I, for one, wanna rip my hair out. Because okay, what now? So we’ve done all the things and we’re still having to find a workaround or to come up with another way to enforce.

And that’s why two, with boundary enforcement, I always say it’s not be prepared to, well then what? Like you stated your boundary and they disrespected it. Well then what are you gonna. you know? And what is it like ask state leave and then respond. There’s, there’s a fourth step, or I’ve seen that given it some self-defense courses I’ve taken in asking someone to stop a behavior that’s making you uncomfortable.

And that is, that’s a, that’s a big frustration because I hear so often, like I did tell them I did walk away, they followed me. , and that’s [00:15:00] so important to be able to articulate to the point she did. Then it sounds like made a report to someone in a supervisory role in that environment, you have to be able to articulate.

I did tell him not to do this. I did say this, I did walk away. But as part of that articulation, then help that other person understand. She did everything that she was supposed to. So this is all on you.

doug1: right? So, so the interesting thing is nobody else has ever held him accountable in that, in that way before. So, you know, one of the challenges that’s coming from other women is, well, was it really that bad? Is it really worth ruining his reputation for. So different than the, the good guy excuse, but their excuses nonetheless for the behavior and the lack of accountability.

And I think at the end of the day you know, he, he, that accountability will ultimately serve him well, which is what the [00:16:00] article that you talked about was how do you, if you are not willing to broach it, how are you gonna give somebody a chance to learn from it and grow?

kelly1: Right. And one of the quotes even from the article is, the Good Guy Defense serves two salient functions to gaslight women and to enable the offender. So that’s that gaslighting. Oh, was it really that bad? Oh, you probably misunderstood, whatever. And then it enables that behavior because he’s like, oh look, nobody believes her now, or, , everyone’s kind of padding the situation or trying to ha sweep it under the rug, and so now it emboldens them. There was actually, when you said that story, I had a story from, it was shared. I was new to an industry and a situation had happened, and so I’m getting this, you know, third hand basically, but Oh. Gentleman who 20 years in the industry, [00:17:00] whatever it was, everyone knew him. E expert, you know, high level, whatever.

But he got into a cab after a dinner with a new fe, young female from the industry, and she accused him of inappropriate behaviors in the back of the cab. And I’m sitting in this meeting going, oh, that’s unfortunate that that happened, was what’s going on in my head. It, you know, to the point that I study this stuff. I try to separate emotions. That’s my emotional boundaries. Like I can’t get riled up every time I read an article or hear a story because otherwise my blood pressure would be through the roof. So I have to take it with, with that certain aspect of not getting emotionally involved every time I hear a story, so there, hey, that’s an unfortunate situation, but the conversation went on to. He’s just got so many years and now she ruined his career because now there’s these rumors and do people believe her? Do [00:18:00] people believe them? And it was this almost pity party for him. It wasn’t even a discussion of whether it happened or not. It was already we’re feeling sorry that this even came out. And that was tough for me to bite my tongue. I didn’t bite my tongue. I said, so are you saying it didn’t happen? and they’re like, no, no, no, no. We’re not saying that. We’re just saying. And I’m like, so, but if she doesn’t, if if this happened and she doesn’t say something, then that behavior is excused. Or he continues to do that behavior and it could escalate and be worse.

And so then it, and then it was kind of like the conversation went dead because what do you say to that? And I was like, again, we don’t know what happened. We weren’t there. But the tone of the conversation you are having right now in retelling.

doug1: Well, he, he said, she said, scenarios like that are almost the worst to have to deal with, right? Because there’s, there’s no witnesses there. You know, all you can go on is your, [00:19:00] Understanding of both party’s past behaviors, what, what, what they have showed you. Which may not be who they are, what you know of them, which is shaded by your exposure to them.

And so I, I understand why those folks were saying where they are on either side. You know, if, if she is telling the truth, you don’t want to excuse his bad behavior. But if she’s lying, Right. It, it is okay to feel bad for him because she’s put this thing in that the question is how do you get the resolution of it before you get to judgment?

Either, either way. And I think, so the advice there is, and this is a really key one from my perspective, it’s key to personal security across the board, is you don’t put yourself in a position where you can be accused of the. , you, you, you just don’t like you. If, if, if you’re getting in that cab, make sure that there are other people in that cab, right?

You have to.

kelly1: So does this go to almost [00:20:00] like the buddy system in the military? Like you never go anywhere by yourself or, you know, that’s where it’s what is feasible and reasonable. I get what you’re saying, but again, I start to think of,

doug1: It’s, but.

kelly1: it feels like a circle, a circular

doug1: way to get off the X is to never get on the X to begin with. Right. So, you know, I don’t know that I would’ve advised that woman to get in a cab with a man she didn’t know well. Right. I don’t know that I would advise a older male to get in a cab with a younger woman that he doesn’t know.

You know, I, I think there’s some real questions there about that, and I realize practicality matters. Sharing, sharing of resources all plays into it. None of us were there. So it’s a challenge in that, I’m just suggesting you think about all of those pieces of it beforehand, right? So that you’ve, you’re, you’re better positioned to, to react to a situation developing because you’ve thought through it beforehand, [00:21:00] then having to do damage control post factor.

kelly1: Right. And I believe that we could, well, what about this, this the, what about monkeys? We could do that with every topic all day long. And the biggest piece it comes down to, in my opinion, is personal responsibility to your point, is better to not be on the X at all. It’s better to not put yourself in a situation that you’re uncomfortable with.

And to me it goes back to intuition. and what you said earlier when I was sharing my story about my friend Jim, does he, does Jim have a reputation in the industry of being a standup good guy, you know, father figure, so to speak, or protector? Yes, he does. He, to me, and this is, it depends, from my perspective, I have only ever seen the behaviors that don’t make my intuition alarm bells go off.

So I caveat that. [00:22:00] Somebody else could be hanging out with Jim and get a whole different perspective. Not to throw Jim under the bus or anything like that. I’m not, I’m not saying that that is a rumor or situation I ever heard. I’ve only ever heard good things about Jim, but individuals, ladies, men, trust your intuition.

If your intuition alarm bells are going off, something is saying, mm, I don’t know about this. Something is. I don’t, I normally don’t get this in this situation, or I normally don’t get this around this in this individual.

doug1: So how do you learn?

kelly1: it. You might not be able to explain why you’re getting an intuition signal, but trust it and be like, you know what?

I’m gonna spend the extra, you know, instead of splitting the the ride share fee, I’ll just pay for

doug1: do you learn to listen to your intuition enough to trust it?

kelly1: getting curious with yourself, I would suggest to individuals. [00:23:00] Hey, when of your intuition alarm bells ever gone off in your

doug1: Well, it’s a skillset, right? So you gotta.

kelly1: What was, you know, like, tell me a story about yourself. When has that, when of your intuition, alarm bells gone off. Most of the people I meet have a story, and then it’s, did you listen to your alarm bells?

And nothing happened, which nobody talks about. That’s not sexy. That’s not what sells the big Hollywood blockbuster movies. But unfortunately, most of the time, no, I didn’t trust my intuition. I denied it. I ignored it. And then, you know, not saying that the worst happened, but yeah. my intuition was telling me, mm, this isn’t going to end well.

And it didn’t, you know, and I should have trusted it. So I go back to, hey, trusting your intuition. And that’s what I really harp on in my trainings that I give through Diamond Darrell group, is we gotta [00:24:00] understand the intuitive process. We have to understand how all of our senses feed our intuition and how our life experiences the culture that we were raised in, the influential people in our.

Impact our perspective of the world. So just because your intuition alarm bells are going off about a situation or some, a person doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s gonna get, you know, have the alarms going off in other people. But that doesn’t make your intu intuition signal wrong. It’s for you and helping bring that forward and make that as part of our conscious conversation.

I mean, that’s why we’re. this show is because we wanna talk about the real life things that people experience to validate and give them words, give them tools so that if I say, you know what, I’m just, I’m [00:25:00] gonna, I’m gonna walk, or I’m going to get my own cab. and then go with it. And no matter what anybody else says, oh, you’re overreacting.

Oh, you’re making such a big deal out of nothing. Doesn’t matter because you know what? I trust my intuition and yeah, I will never be able to prove that something would have happened because I, I stopped it, or I changed direction, changed path. So I don’t know, you know, the butterfly effect, if I chose A instead of B, I’ll never know what would’ve happened.

Had I chose B, but guess what? I’m safe and I made it home and I’m fine. I’m always going to go that direction. And that does take practice, you know, making your personal safety a priority and never needing to apologize

doug1: So again, it’s, it’s a skillset that can be built. It starts with self-awareness and self-reflection. . Right? And then it, it [00:26:00] requires some practice to utilize, right? Some conscious effort to, to evaluate, go through these, these cycles of exposure and evaluation and, and assessment of what did that behavior.

You know, make me feel like, what did that verbiage make me feel like? Why do I feel that way? Thinking through it? But it, it, it can be built, it can be strengthened, it can be done upon, grown upon without building a culture of fear. Right. Or, or trepidation out there assuming everybody’s bad because we have those intuitive moments all the time, and it’s, it’s, but with that self-awareness and going, why, why does that make me feel that way?

You can, you can hone. Right, and, and sharpen it so that, that the next time you utilize it, it’s better.

kelly1: I do think that as soon as you hear a sound. To me, you can hear it faster the next time because your ears recognize it. [00:27:00] And so to me, to your point that sharpening the skill, the more you practice listening to your intuition, the better you’ll be able to hear it and it’ll come through when you need it. So that’s that building the trust in yourself, that’s, that’s you. You know, intuition is specific to you, so you don’t. . Anyone else to validate your

doug1: I think that’s one of the key points

kelly1: You get to

doug1: is it’s a process you have to take. So you gotta know. And be willing to go through those iterative cycles of, of learning how to do it. So know yourself, learn your environment around you, learn what the norm is, and be able to work on that, that basis.

kelly1: and you’re not gonna be perfect the first couple times and you could be working on this. Have the best intuition. . I’m gonna take a guess, Doug, that there are still times in your life, I bet there are few and far between now, but I bet there’s still times in your life where you’re like, I didn’t listen to my intuition, or, [00:28:00] Ooh, I, I messed up on my situational awareness.

Like it’s, it’s a skill that you have to practice every day and there’s no

doug1: hundred percent. Yep, exactly.

kelly1: So one thing that you mentioned earlier that I do wanna touch on, because. I don’t want people to think we’re just over here bashing. Men are only focused on male behaviors, is women are not immune to this.

I mean, one of the worst experiences in my professional life was caused by a quote unquote good Christian woman, and I use that like you can fill in the blank with any religious sect or group is using something, some outwardly behavior to. Inappropriate behavior or in, in this case, unethical or illegal behavior.

It doesn’t matter if outside of this instance or what happened, this situation, goes to church every week. Great, [00:29:00] phenomenal. This still happened, and so again, to me it goes back to we cannot focus on people or specific. Things, it’s behaviors, and when you remove all of those and focus on the behaviors, suddenly things get a lot more clear and you’re not going to cloud your judgment with, gosh, well, such a good person to everyone else, or they volunteer a lot, or they, you know, hel are a do, do good, or everywhere else.

It’s, that’s fine and that behavior. is still unacceptable, inappropriate. There I was in an industry, one of my, that I earlier in my career and loved it. It was so much fun. It was sports tourism, so lots of travel, got to hang out and get tours of lots of stadiums. It was a really work hard, play hard mentality, and I still have many good friends from that [00:30:00] industry.

And I’ll remember I was having a conversation with an individual who’s an older gentleman. And he brought up this individual we’ll just call him Fred . And there’s two Freds in the industry, you know, which there’s not a lot of Fred. So this is kinda similar in the sense of, well, I’m thinking the one Fred, and he was thinking the other Fred. And I said, oh yeah, Fred. All the ladies knew that when he had too many. Drinks. You stayed away from him because he got a little too touchy-feely and a little bit boundary crosser. And he was like, really? And turns out, you know, and his, he was like, oh, I would hang out with Fred all the time. I didn’t realize that’s what the ladies thought about him.

And I’m like, well, a, you’re, you’re not the target of the behavior, so you’re, he’s not gonna get touchy-feely with you. But it’s, it’s interesting again, where sometimes. Women a pass because we’re like, well, women would never [00:31:00] be inappropriate. Women would not have bad behaviors. And I feel like this is the good volley to you, Doug of your story of going to the concert with your daughters

doug1: Yeah, it.

kelly1: Or maybe you didn’t wanna talk about it

doug1: Well, I hadn’t planned on it, but it, it, you’re right, you, you can’t excuse women from having bad, bad behaviors. And I think a lot of people in a situation where they think they can get away with it. will make a choice that ultimately is the wrong choice or make a choice that that causes someone else to feel incredibly uncomfortable in a situation.

And there have been a number of occasions where , I have been in situations where I’m like, yeah, I should probably extricate myself from this situation on business travel or in meetings or, or whatever, because it. getting going up to that line and it’s clear the line is being tested intentionally, right?

And so,

kelly1: So [00:32:00] let’s put this on layman’s terms just in case. So that is maybe a female paying too much attention to you, is what you’re saying,

doug1: Yeah. Yeah. Testing my boundaries. Testing whether I’m somebody who’s willing, you know, how, how much am I gonna stick to, you know, my vows or am I, you know, in this environment where I could get away with it, so what am I willing to, sort of thing. And it’s interesting because no guy would ever view that as sexual harassment.

Like most guys would be like, Yes. Right. But, but at the end of the day, you know, it’s, it’s just the flip side of the same coin, right? It’s somebody who is making an approach that they did not know whether it was a wanted or unwanted approach at the beginning, right? And learning how to, to set those same boundaries and extricate yourself from that situation, learning how to listen to your intuition and go.

man, what, what were my contributions to it? Because by the way, there always are, like, I, I’m a very friendly, outgoing guy. I a hundred percent know that my [00:33:00] behavior can be misread also. . So learning to tone that down and my daughters have been really good at, at being mirrors for me on some of that sometimes and saying, Hey, yeah, you, you should probably think about how that gets interpreted.

And so it’s, it’s, you’re right, it’s, it’s a risk factor on both sides. It just, we tend to talk about it more and think about it more from the female perspective, I think because. You know, women aren’t supposed to be the aggressors or are not the aggressors, and men are able to withstand that, you know, more readily.

And I think that’s, there’s truth in that also. But back to to, to our good guy, behavior, our good guy excuse, right? We just wanna make sure nobody’s excused for making a bad choice or bad behavior under some, you know, throwaway term That’s. Removes accountability from the situation[00:34:00] 

kelly1: I agree. Well, my brain right now is going, and I’m trying to say, okay, what One thing that popped into my head is, Can good guys who exhibited bad behavior and get spoken directly to, so, Hey, that made me uncomfortable. Don’t do that again. No, I don’t wanna hug. Whatever. Can, like, can they go back to

doug1: I don’t know. I mean,

kelly1: and how do you, how, you know what I’m saying?

Like, oh, he’s a good guy. He messed up. but not that way anymore. Like is there, is that a game that gets

doug1: Well, so one, the answer I think is it depends. Yes, they can. No, they can’t. Every situation is situat situationally dependent. Right. Look, I, if a good guy sits down and says, I am really sorry. I did not respect your boundaries, right? I pushed [00:35:00] when I shouldn’t have pushed. I don’t know what it will take for you to forgive me.

I don’t know if you’ll be willing to trust me again when you’re ready, right? That, to, to try that. I’m willing to, to do my piece of it, and then letting it be there. There will be,

kelly1: Right. I

doug1: will be women though, that’ll say, I don’t know that I’ll ever be ready. I, I, there’ll be women that’ll say, I don’t trust that response from.

Right. Or or won’t accept that response from you because they’re afraid that he’s just putting that nice guy hat back on. in order to engage in bad behavior again. And, you know, so it’s, it, it, that doesn’t mean a good guy truly makes a mistake, should not pursue that path of accountability, public transparency with the, with the harmed party at the end of the day.

That that piece of it has nothing to do with sexual harassment, has to do with, you know, human relations between two people. , I screwed up. I hurt this other person. I [00:36:00] need to own my, that hurt for that other person, and I need to do what I can to repair it. I can only control my pieces of it. I can’t control their pieces of it.

And if they truly are unwilling to allow me to do the repair work, I gotta be comfortable with walking away. They gotta be comfortable with letting me walk away.

kelly1: and I know we, we kind of keep going back to the sexual harassment or sexual assault conversation, but really I see this as if you make a racist comment, if you inappropriate comment in any context, a behavior that is not okay with someone and they specifically let you know. because I will give you, if nobody ever tells you that, that makes them uncomfortable, how are you supposed to know you’re not a mind reader?

So again, if somebody’s behavior makes you uncomfortable, say it. Let them know. Maybe not in a public forum, you know, and calling them out and d and berating them. but definitely let them know one-on-one that in a safe space, you know, obviously [00:37:00] it depends. Context matters. But let them know because otherwise they won’t know.

They can’t read your mind. And if they do, make an apology, make amends. Action speaks louder than words. Okay? So don’t then also hound that person for forgiveness or go overboard, because then that’s still if they, they said no. , thank you for letting me know. To your point, that was a very eloquent apology, Doug.

You know, anybody wanna download the transcript and, and from the website and go highlight that and put that in your phone. I definitely recommend it. But it’s, then you gotta drop it like it’s not on you anymore. Like if you messed up, make apologies, and then, do better show by your actions that you were sincere and don’t then use that as like another, well, now I’m just trying to show you, I’m a good guy.

Okay, but if I ask you to leave me alone and now you’re coming back using this as a tactic, that’s just gonna

doug1: Look, [00:38:00] Tru Trust is far more easily burned than it is earned, and so you can torch it in a heartbeat. and it may take years to rebuild it, and so some level of recognition says that’s just one of the consequences that comes with burning that trust to begin with. It’s not gonna be fixed with a slap dash of paint the next day.

Right? And, and even if the other individual, the harmed party seems to accept that it’s gonna be fixed, it’s probably not. It’s gonna take some real work to fix that mess. And, and, and so you gotta be willing to go, go through the hard stuff. Look, most of us are a conflict avoidance, prone. We don’t like conflict.

We’re not good at it. We want everything to be happy and and easy. 

kelly1: We want people to be mind readers that would make our

doug1: and we, we would way rather talk about my issue with you, with somebody else than with you directly. Because that’s hard. That’s hard. But, but this people stuff, it’s hard, right? And so that, that, [00:39:00] that shift away from being willing to do that hurts this whole conversation about being able to, to talk about, Hey, this is how that made me feel and it’s inappropriate that, that I had to feel that way.

And, and so we gotta figure out how to get.

kelly1: and you know, two, going back to the point of the article is the good guy. Protection excuse is really about the people around the two individuals. This article really isn’t about the two involved individuals. You know, person A and person B. This is about C, D, E, F, G, all surrounding them. And so to your point of if you’re going, if you’re not talking to the person whose behaviors made you uncomfortable, and instead you’re talking to a friend or someone else about the behaviors, well now that’s them saying that’s that gaslighting and that’s the rumors.

And then people are saying, oh, well that’s not that big of a [00:40:00] deal. So really it, it gets down to them making it more complex, more complicated. There’s more emotions involved versus dealing with it direct. And to your point, we are. Most of us are conflict avoidant types. We don’t, we want contrary to what society is doing most of the time.

Now, we don’t wanna be at odds with people constantly. We don’t wanna be arguing with others constantly, especially people that we hang out with. But if you don’t deal with a situation, it’s only gonna get worse. It’s the sweeping it under the rug. It’s the, okay, we’re just gonna look the other way until it gets worse.

And that’s to me, why are we waiting till it gets worse? Why? That’s why I love situational awareness so much. And why? Yes. Situational awareness is part of active threat training when the [00:41:00] threat’s there. Okay. I’m trying to get way before the threat’s there. I’m trying to let you know, Hey, Fred , I just met you and.

You know what? That’s not okay with me Or, mm, I didn’t find that so funny. I’m gonna let you know right away. So you go, oh, okay, ACE. She’s going to say something and let me know in a calm way. But it establishes, Hey, these are my boundaries right away, and so I’m not gonna wait till it gets worse, or an escalation happens, and then try and calm things.

doug1: So . We’re going to suggest that folks, you know, spend some time learning themselves and thinking through themselves and list learning to listen to their intuition and build that skillset of how their intuition can help them. , you know, evaluate scenarios that they’re in, right? We’re going to teach ’em to, to learn to read non-verbal cues, right?

Learning to pay attention to the [00:42:00] behaviors people are engaging in around them. And then three, speak up and be willing to say, this thing, this behavior, this pattern is making me feel uncomfortable. Right? And, and it’s speaking to the person. in a way, if you need others around you to, to feel safe, do it.

But if you can do it one-on-one and still feel safe, do it one-on-one. It’s ensuring that you’ve done what you have in your control to, to ensure that other individual knows that what they’re doing makes you feel insecure or unsafe or uncomfortable.

kelly1: I think those are all great takeaways, and as a reminder to everyone listening, the takeaways will be listed on the episode key, and as Doug mentioned, kind of a good lead in the daily habit for this episode. is reading. Nonverbals and nonverbals are exactly what they sound like. It’s body posturing, it’s body movements.

It’s their facial expressions. What are they saying without [00:43:00] saying anything out loud? So spend 10 minutes this week breathing a stranger’s body language and guessing what they’re thinking. Guess what they’re feeling. Are they in a good mood? Are they in a bad mood? You know? Yeah. You’re not gonna necessarily know.

We’re not saying you have to walk up and confirm whether you were right or not. It’s simp. Being observant and building some of those observation skills. Oh, he looks sad. What? Why does he look sad? Is it the way his eyes look? Is it the way his head hangs? What is that? She looks really happy? Is she happy?

How do you tell that between nervous excitement, you know, breaking it down and really practicing, articulating, well, why do I think that? What am I seeing without hearing that tells me? That clue or gives me that clue, tells me that’s what they’re feeling or thinking, and then try and guess what they’re gonna do next.

In the sense, a lot of times they talk about this when you’re talking to people and if they have one [00:44:00] foot pointed into the side, that means they, that’s the direction they’re gonna go. They’re trying to get out of the conversation and they’re looking that way

doug1: I

kelly1: again. depends. We could probably have that discussion because I feel like I always stand with one foot.

Maybe I’m always like waiting to get outta the conversation. I don’t know. But what, what are they going to do next? What is their next move? And it’s people watching 1 0 1 and we just gave you permission here on the Thrive Unafraid podcast. We just gave you permission to go sit and people watch and judge

doug1: and by the way, Do it online too. You can look at at photos, and you can do the same practice at photos. One of my favorite things that I see is Keanu Reeves, right? He has a lot of fans, a lot of folks who wanna take pictures with him. Go look at the photos of Keanu Reeves in photos, you know, that he’s taken with fans, and tell me

kelly1: like selfie photos that people

doug1: photos where somebody’s handed their camera to somebody and he’s with one or two or three other people, and pay attention to where he puts his hands in [00:45:00] those photos.

kelly1: Oh, now I wanna go look. Okay.

doug1: That’s your word.

kelly1: what, we’ll, we’ll add that to the takeaways in the episode key so that you can remember to go do that. Because if, if you’re anything like me, you’re probably listening to this podcast while you’re multitasking or driving , and so you’re like, oh, I wanna remember to do that.

That’s why we put together the episode key. So that you can go to the diamond era group.com, download the episode key and get all this information. Daily habit reminders, Doug, and i’s takeaways, and just a lot of other good stuff on that. the question before we wrap up, Doug, did any of your perspectives change or did anything surprise you in this discussion that you hadn’t thought of?

doug1: No, I mean, I, I feel like on this particular topic, I’ve, I’ve thought about it a, a, a fair amount, right? So, , I think it’s an important topic that needs to continue to . Get discussed and, would challenge folks to, to tell us if their perspective changed.[00:46:00] 

kelly1: Oh, that’s a good one too. Yeah, we can comment. Send us messages. You’ll have links to

doug1: Send all the nice ones to me and all the mean ones to Kelly.

kelly1: Right . No, no,

doug1: I know you’ll hurt her good Midwestern heart.

kelly1: Right. It’ll break my heart. Oh, bless their heart. Well, I think that’s it for the first episode. Thank you so much, Doug, for taking the time. Thank you to our listeners for taking time to listen. As Doug mentioned, we’d love to hear your feedback. What did you think? What are your takeaways? Did you have any aha moments and.

with the daily habit exercise. We’d love to hear any ahas from that. What have you observed? What did you find out about yourself when you were practicing, articulating, reading those non-verbals

doug1: join us next time.

kelly1: and. Yeah. Make sure to follow the Diamond Arrow Group and Texas [00:47:00] Spy Dad on Instagram to keep up with even more real advice between our show episodes.

Thank you for listening. We appreciate your support. 

doug1: And if you like this podcast, why don’t you go on over to Spycraft 1 0 1. Justin Black is, a great guy who really digs into the world of espionage from World War II and before all the way up to current espionage cases, and he digs into them in in-depth episodes. Well worth your time and effort to listen to.

So head on over to Spycraft 1 0 1, your clandestine c.

kelly1: Remember to leave a show, review and share it with your friends and family. Be bold. Be curious. Be kind, and stay sharp. This is Thrive unafraid.