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Episode #11 Transcript - Boss-level Mindset, Self-Esteem, and Communication Inside and Outside the Workplace with Dr. Mary Beth


Kelly: There we go. Welcome back to another episode of Thrive Unafraid. Excited to have our guest here, Dr. Mary Beth, and excited for all of our listeners who are tuning in show after show, and downloading the episodes and listening to our fantastic conversations. I hope you’re enjoying them. I hope you’re taking something away and I hope it’s challenging, maybe some of your thoughts and helping you see your surroundings, your world from a different perspective. So without further ado, like I mentioned, we have Dr. Mary Beth with us, or as I like to sometimes call her Doc Mary Beth. A little bit of background because we could take up the entire episode talking about Doc Mary Beth’s background.

She’s a former Secret Service agent. International Personal Protection Agent. She’s a self-esteem mentor, [00:01:00] Doctor of clinical psychology, forensic psychology expert, a college professor, and somehow amongst all of that, she’s also an author of a great book called The Protector, which I love and we’ll be going into some of the things that I pulled out just a few because I think all of our listeners should buy Doc Mary Best book off of Amazon.

It’s a fantastic read, so without further ado. Welcome doc. I am so glad that you’re here and joining us.

Dr. Janke: Yeah.

Kelly: Yes, we. Oh, thank you. Thank you. It’s been a lot of fun. Doug and I have good conversations with either when we, when we have the opportunity to have guests on our show or just the two of us discussing our different perspectives.

Sometimes male, female, sometimes experts, non-experts on different topics. So it’s fun. But one thing you and I [00:02:00] have connected through, Mutual context and we’ve had, one, I think we’ve had one conversation over the phone or over a Zoom call, and then I’ve just because of that, gotten to know you followed your work, read your book, watched your TED Talk, was able to, you present at the recent bodyguards for Kids virtual.

Event. Yes, we were. Yep. Both mutual presenters at that event. So I’ve gotten to know a lot of your work observationally as kind of an spectator or as an attendee, but one thing that, well, there’s many things that jp out, but one thing that I wanted to talk about is, You are, reading through your bio and the things that you’ve experienced in life, the really cool things you’ve gotten to do.

I love the mindset that you have about being realistic about what you’re walking into. Don’t expect to get your butt kissed because you’re a female, but it’s also [00:03:00] balancing the I am worthy of taking up space. And being in the room, I’m not entitled, I don’t get special treatment just because I’m a female in the Secret Service. It’s a balance between I think of confidence and arrogance.

Dr. Janke: Hmm.

Kelly: And I would love to hear kind of where that came from, because I think that’s something women struggle with a lot when it comes to imposter syndrome. So how do we walk into a room owning our space, but yet not being. Oh, I just get to be here

Dr. Janke: Yeah, it’s a huge…

Kelly: And there should be more females.

Dr. Janke: It seems like a fine line, but it’s a really huge distinction. And I’ve literally had like, not fights, but I remember one time one of my sisters, I won’t name which one cause I have five of them, and we kind of had this battle and because something was happening where in California they were demanding that each company have a female on their board.

And I was like, that’s bullshit. And she’s [00:04:00] like, you should be more supportive of women. I said, it’s not about supporting women, it’s about earning your place, not being given it because you’re a woman. And it really bothered me. And I mean, we didn’t really talk that much more about it, but as it’s…

I would feel like my self-esteem would be crushed if someone gave me something just because I was a woman. And probably, and that probably comes from having to have fought for so much throughout my life, but, where does that come from? Was one of your original questions.

I’m not sure because maybe athletics, I was an athlete all my life and, but, amongst women, I was on, I was on co-ed teams in the summer for fun, but there wasn’t much to prove there. But, I chose my profession just like I said in that article that you just read that quote about like, don’t expect to have your butt kissed.

It’s, know what you’re going to, law enforcement is a tough [00:05:00] profession and it still is male dominated. So don’t go in. I had a conversation with one of my students when I was teaching when I, and, and when I was teaching. I used to have these, what I’d call career sessions and I’d say anybody that wants to pursue postgraduate, psychology, whether that’s a master’s or a doctorate or anybody that wants to go into law enforcement, just come.

We’d have these zooms when it was covid and ask any questions you want and this one female. And I’m maybe exaggerating a little bit for the conversation and the story, but she’s like, well, look, I, I’m afraid they’re gonna be mean to me. And I was like, I kind of had to take a deep breath on that one.

And I was like, you again, it kind of comes from that you know what you’re getting into. They’re gonna be mean to me. Oh, they’re probably gonna be brutal because they’re gonna be brutal to the men too, though. everybody in law enforcement, it’s kind of the way we communicate because it’s hard and it’s.

A lot of ugly, and you see some of the [00:06:00] crappier sides of human beings and the way we sort of communicate and bond is through sarcasm and like giving each other so much crap. And so, yeah, they’re probably gonna be mean to you and you’re gonna be mean back, but it’s not mean. Just like giving each other shit, because that’s what you do.

So, I had a conversation with her about a year later, and we just thought maybe that’s not the profession for her, ? So, I’m not like some, I was never like this sort of, I don’t know. It’s really hard for me to say where it came from because I came from such a big family.

Maybe as a way to distinguish myself, I don’t know, none of us have the same profession. I’d say my parents honored us as individuals as opposed to comparing us to each other. And probably Kelly, to be honest, I’m a big birth order person and I’m the fifth [00:07:00] kid of five in a row, and I was always looking for ways to distinguish myself because I got so sick of being compared to my siblings. And so, I did a lot of things to kind of go, God, I don’t wanna play tennis, even though my whole family played tennis. I’m gonna play volleyball. I don’t wanna freaking take German. I’m gonna take Spanish. And just like, again, when you’re a freshman in high school and you got sisters in every other grade, it’s great in some ways and eye rolling in some other ways.

So maybe some of that was sort of me just trying to be me, apart from my siblings.

Kelly: Well, and I think that tied into one of the stories that I actually, it was ironic in your book. I’m reading it and I was like, this, I am…

Dr. Janke: …really curious.

Kelly: , I should, that’s one I highlighted. I put same path. Different outcomes. So you’re, you had mentioned, to be clear, I signed up for an org [00:08:00] organization knowing that I, what I was getting into, so this was, getting into the secret service.

If I had let what people thought of me affect me or dictate how I was going to live my life, I would’ve been married to 21, gotten divorced. Also, Kelly, I’m pointing at myself, forgetting that we don’t have video of this gotten divorced, stayed in my hometown, which I had at the time. And become depressed and gone into sales.

I was a sales assistant, and miserable. It literally… I was laughing out loud like I was the opposite. Mary Beth did her PA and followed her path at that age, and I fell into the trying to be what other people wanted me to be or letting me there. And, and you talked about it in your, in your, TED Talk.

Their fears project onto me. And at that age, and now, with, with the research I do with, with what I study and the psychology behind stuff, the [00:09:00] impact of your parenting on how your view of the world, your perspectives are formed. Again, I’m not blaming my parents. My parents did an awesome job with

Dr. Janke: Yeah.

Kelly: They did the best they could.

So I’m not one of those people, like, this is my parents’ fault. No. It’s not, but that they’re now being able to go, ah, now I get it. Why that voice, or wanting to make my mom happy

Dr. Janke: Birth order.

Kelly: I was the oldest, right? A lot of responsibility was put on to me, so it wasn’t, it really didn’t matter what Kelly wanted because Kelly needed to play this role in the family structure because my dad was an over the road truck driver and was gone.

So mom needed it. Kind of the surrogate parent or another responsible person. So at a very young age, I was given a lot of responsibilities. Again, like kind of that whole,

Dr. Janke: yeah. There was no room for rebellion there, and I was a total

Kelly: this for the [00:10:00] family again. Awesome. Well, I tried to rebel, but then it was still like, I still, honor roll and on the student senate, like I, my rebelling was like La Child’s play.

It was seriously like a joke. But still…

Dr. Janke: No, it’s all part of…

Kelly: But I’m getting… I digress. Okay. Go off. But that was one thing, right. And self-awareness, and you kind of mentioned that as how we react to situations good and bad. You’re not always gonna react in a good way, this female stating to you, oh, they might be mean to me.

Oh, okay. Well, ca. Yeah, to your point, they could be sarcasm. I grew up with sarcasm was huge in my family, so that doesn’t phase me at all. Like, it doesn’t like whatever… but if that’s not how you function or if that is something that you’re not comfortable with, just be aware. And to your point, it sounds like [00:11:00] a year later she was like, yeah, this just doesn’t sound like a fit for me.

And that’s okay. You don’t have to. Be that you can choose to be who you wanna be, and I love that. That’s part of self-awareness, I think is so critical to situational awareness, understanding your perspective of the world and how it shapes what you view as a threat or what you view as not a threat. so. What, where would you talk about working with students in that college and becoming self-aware and I shared my story about how I wasn’t following my own compass at that time and it, and I think it was cool to read how you did follow your compass and even it had its own challenges, right? And I think I always say I didn’t follow my own compass and that still had [00:12:00] challenges.

So if I could go back and pick. I would choose following my own compass and dealing with uncomfortableness at a

Dr. Janke: I feel like at 57, that’s where I am today. I’m still doing that.

Kelly: And I don’t know if you have…

Dr. Janke: …still feel like I, it’s not, it’s not rebellion really anymore. It’s following my own compass and knowing there’s so much judgment around me for a lot of my decisions. Oh, absolutely.

Doug: Who’s the judgment from?

Kelly: You still

Dr. Janke: It depends, for example, again, 57 but eight, I didn’t get married until a week after my 43rd birthday.

There was a freaking ton of judgment on that, not just, not really anybody in my family except for my mom who just wanted all of us, because I’m one of seven, successfully launched. But again, being in law enforcement, very male dominated. If a particular colleague hit on me and I wouldn’t give in. It would [00:13:00] be like, oh, because you’re a lesbian. And it’s like, no, I am making a choice to, oh, oh, you’re not married and you won’t date me and whatever. And like, there was judgment. There was judgment from people. You could just tell like, okay, so I, I worked in Dallas and in Dallas you get married very young.

Doug: You gotta have big hair and her earrings too, but…

Dr. Janke: What, what, what.

Doug: Gig hair and hoop earrings in…

Dr. Janke: And big blonde hair.

Doug: Yeah.

Dr. Janke: And so, yes, but not, not necessarily real blonde hair. So, and it was… they were beside themselves that at the time I was, I think 35. And it’s like, you’re not married. It’s like, and then you could hear the whispers, right? , lesbian, What, what’s wrong with her, blah, blah, blah.

And it’s so interesting. And I would just be like, I know that’s not about me. That’s about them. it doesn’t [00:14:00] mean, it doesn’t mean that some of the judgment doesn’t affect me, but I still know that what I’m doing is my life, not anybody else’s life. And I’m not going to, as Kelly and I were talking about, get married because that’s what society wants from me.

Doug: But I do think a lot of our listeners, as they think about the choices they make in how to protect themselves, how to prepare for the world that you’re gonna encounter every day, one of the things they do run into is that fear of judgment on a daily basis. That they will be judged for how they’re focusing on themselves or following their compass per se.

Dr. Janke: And they’ll get judged if they don’t. So, like Kelly said, I followed my compass. She didn’t, we were still both judged, I’m sure. No doubt. So follow your compass. In other words, I say this to clients that I work with, it doesn’t matter, like there’s always I. You could be the nicest, most amazing kindhearted person out there, and people are still gonna knock you off that pedestal.

They’re gonna try to [00:15:00] find a little crack in your armor. People can be really cruel and a lot of people aren’t happy. When people aren’t happy, they project that onto other people and try to bring them with them often, ?

Kelly: I think that’s okay because so often that’s what

Dr. Janke: Well, you can be kind and firm, right? 

Kelly: You know? I wanna be a kind person. And it’s like, okay, but at the expense, yes. What’s the expense? So if you’re quote unquote, is this stranger who’s actually interrupting you or getting into your space, crossing your boundaries, but you’re worried about appearing rude to them?

Like let’s the self-awareness of no, that’s your boundary. You

Dr. Janke: You don’t have to be a bitch. You can just be firm and, yeah.

Kelly: with that.

Doug: And if they interpret that as being a bitch, that’s again on them, not on you per

Dr. Janke: Correct.

Doug: Is there, so self-awareness, is there a difference in your mind between self-awareness and emotional [00:16:00] intelligence?

Dr. Janke: Oh gosh, yeah.

Doug: Can you…

Dr. Janke: For me there is, yeah. I think, self-awareness, I mean our emotionally intelligent people, I would say I. That not all self-aware people are necessarily emotionally intelligent, but I think most emotionally intelligent people are self-aware.

Doug: Fair.

Dr. Janke: If I were to make that distinction, I think you have people that are self-aware but don’t necessarily understand, like the way I understand emotional intelligence is just really not only understanding your own self-awareness and emotions, but really being able to perceive and understand others.

And from that sort of, not just dictate the, like let’s say I were a CEO or a manager. Not just dictate how I wanna lead, but also taking into account the other people around me and how they best need to be nurtured in the workplace.

Doug: [00:17:00] So self-awareness plus ‘othered centeredness’, plus empathy.

Dr. Janke: Correct. would give you that. Yeah.

Doug: Okay.

Dr. Janke: Yeah, tricky, tricky question. Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah. That’s, that’s what we like to have those tricky questions on this podcast. Like, oh, there’s some good ones where I’ve very, I don’t necessarily

Doug: We’re slowly bringing Kelly along.

Kelly: That’s how I

Dr. Janke: Doug asked a question then he kind of does the knitted eyebrow thing that like, is trying to intimidate, but.

Doug: No, I just have a really good R-B-F

Dr. Janke: R-B-F?

Doug: Resting face…

Dr. Janke: Oh, okay.

Doug: And this little furrow here is, it’s a perma-furrow. It…

Kelly: Goodness. Well, and…

Dr. Janke: Yeah. Oh, well. Yep.

Doug: That’ll do it.

Kelly: …his four kids, he’s got a perma-furrow. [00:18:00] You know, one thing I wrote down with self-awareness that I try really hard to remember to bring up. I’ll be honest. When I’m doing presentations, sometimes I forget this piece, but the whole putting it back on people and saying, being self-aware is okay. A lot of self-work. But I also…

Dr. Janke: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: to challenge you to be self-aware when you’re not respecting other people’s boundaries.

You need to be aware of your behaviors. It’s dropping that because I think a lot of times where we can get into a society can get into, well, I’m just gonna focus on all the ways people are wrong or treat me badly or their behaviors, how they negatively impact me without saying, Hmm, is it possible that I could be doing some of the things that, kind of the do as I say, not as I do.

And so being self-aware, I think I always like to challenge people to [00:19:00] think about, okay, are you respectful of other people’s boundaries? If your friend, if you’re all excited, you wanna go out and you’re like, let’s go out Friday night and your friend’s like, I’m tired, I wanna go home. Do you nag them or do you say, oh, great, have a great time.

I’m gonna go out or do your thing. And that’s always a catch too, because sometimes I think, again, when I’m saying, so y

Dr. Janke: No, but it’s a great

Kelly: I need to respect your boundaries.

Dr. Janke: thing to be aware, self-aware, but also how are you carrying that into other relationships? Because it’s not just, I’m not the only person, self-awareness isn’t like in this little bubble.

Doug: Well, and, and we’re all quick to hold others to a high standard. Are we holding ourselves to that same high standard? We’re holding ourselves to a standard of being above reproach on areas that, that we want to, to hold others to account as well.

Dr. Janke: Yeah.

Kelly: , I [00:20:00] wanted to dig into next the finding your power in the workplace, like standing your ground without making enemies, but while gaining respect, I. I think that is something I hear often from women is, okay, how do I be aggressive and assertive at work, but have a good attitude? Or, how do I, I don’t wanna be called or labeled a bitch, let’s say.

Okay, well, again, you can’t control how, what other people think of you in their opinions and. It’s completely okay. So can you talk about how your

Dr. Janke: Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back a little bit to what you were saying earlier about boundaries, right? I think, and I had a really, , I was having a session with a client earlier today and a lot of our conversation was about boundaries because she was super frustrated with what had transpired in her life over the past month.

I’m like, but who are you mad at? And she’s like, what do you mean? [00:21:00] And I’m like, well, is it you or is it your girlfriend that she was on vacation with? And like, it’s those things when there’s frustration in a certain part of your life. That’s the self-awareness part of, you gotta look in the mirror.

Doug: But it’s way easier to, to get mad at the person holding the mirror,

Dr. Janke: And, and well, but you should get you, well, are you holding the mirror? Or somebody else

Doug: No wait. Her friend who was holding the

Dr. Janke: Oh, I see what you’re saying. Yeah. No. Right. But then how does that, how’s that working for you?

Doug: Not very well. Yeah, for

Dr. Janke: Because then it’s a pattern. That’s what she was saying. She’s like, it’s a pattern in my life.

And right. So when it becomes a pattern, and like I said to her like a, a lot of what she was saying was that, she’s almost too good of her friend and she lets people sort of occupy so much of her time and that happened on this vacation and boundaries are great. And I said, listen, I’m not gonna say her name obviously, but you are who you are and you being a great friend and being a giver, Is one of your [00:22:00] superpowers, but not when it starts affecting you in a negative way.

So when you start feeling annoyed with your friends or like, I can’t even fricking read my book on the beach, for a day that’s kind of up to you to set those boundaries and clear that space for you. Don’t stop being you. Don’t stop being that amazing friend. Don’t stop being that amazing coworker, ?

But understand Kelly, going back to that example you said about people, women in the workplaces, who do you wanna be like, decide that? Because not all women wanna be assertive or aggressive. They gotta ch, they gotta decide who do I wanna be in the workplace? And then what might that take? To be that without being a bitch or without being offensive, and with creating the sort of boundaries, and again creating boundaries for anybody who does it.

It’s not easy. I know very few people that do it well, naturally, very few. It’s an effort. It’s how I, how do I not offend, how do I do this and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. If essentially you’re gonna, here’s the thing, you can’t [00:23:00] please everybody. Impossible. But if you’re in, if you’re gonna be true to yourself, it’s true also in the workplace.

Whether you’re at home, whether in your community, whether you’re freaking shopping after work at a grocery store… Are you being true to, oh, I’m a kind person, I’m a helpful person. I’m what, whatever, or am I being a bitch because I’m in a hurry, I’m this, that, or whatever.

So again, that happens, but who do you wanna be in the workplace? Decide that because again, Kelly, you and I probably have a little bit more assertiveness in us, but not all women have that, and they don’t have to have that to make a place and be important in a workplace. So I think the decision starts there is who do I wanna be and then what are the, what might that take that I’m not doing in a respectful way to make that happen?

What boundaries do I sort of need to create and who do I need to be on a more consistent [00:24:00] basis without being trampled on?

Doug: I think that intentionality with that, that decision as to who you wanna be is key. And then I think about consistency.

Dr. Janke: Mm-hmm.

Doug: And communicating that while you’re there. I think the change or flipping back and forth between self-doubt and confidence can be difficult. And this is not a male or a female thing. It’s for, for

Dr. Janke: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug: And then finding the right balance between self and team support. I definitely agree that it’s sometimes easier for me as a male in the workplace to be more direct than some of my female counterparts. But, I had one guy come to me one day because his wife was frustrated with how direct I was with him in providing critical feedback and he said “I had to tell her that I’m able to take critical feedback from you because I know you are for me”.

Right. And so at some level there had been an almost an exchange of trust, right? That [00:25:00] said, you’re giving this to me because you’re for my success, and therefore I’m willing to hear harder, more direct things. I think that is a little bit easier on the guy’s side for that to happen. And sometimes with women in the workplace.

Dr. Janke: Why do you think that is?

Doug: I don’t know. 

Dr. Janke: I don’t know either. I’m just wondering if you have a perspective since you see that it is easier.

Doug: I think it’s fear. There’s some fear rooted in that, probably on both sides. I think there’s uncertainty in how to handle the potential emotional connection somebody might make in the workplace. And not knowing how to handle those boundaries well.

Dr. Janke: Mm-hmm.

Doug: And then I think there’s transparency… It’s difficult to be transparent inherently, and I think that gets [00:26:00] more complex when you’re talking, between the two sexes as well.

Dr. Janke: Interesting. Yeah.

Doug: You are the doctor. I’m not…

Dr. Janke: Yeah, but I’m not, and I wouldn’t say I’m an expert at understanding workplace situations, and I think that’s such an interesting thing that maybe goes back to Kelly, what you were saying about so many women feeling sort of like imposter syndrome. Like you’d watch, say for example Doug, having this sort of superpower of being able to be direct.

Doug: Hmm.

Dr. Janke: And meanwhile someone’s going, God, that’s how I’ve always wanted to do it, but I feel like such a bitch. Or I feel like… is it me again? Kind of going back like, where’s your authentic self? , again, not, not being an f and b, right? That’s, if that’s who you are, well that’s not gonna work in any workplace.

So great. But, I kind of decided that because. Just because I admire you, Doug, and your style for example, doesn’t mean that that’s my style and that’s what I should aspire to. So I think [00:27:00] that’s important too, Kelly, right? Kind of going back to like, who do I wanna be and like maybe I might say like, let’s say I worked with Doug and I really liked his style and I felt like that could be my style.

I might say, Hey Doug, could you mentor me? Seeking mentors because why do it yourself if somebody else can help you and give you that feedback.

Doug: I have an amazing woman on my team who also tends to be very direct in how she provides feedback and leadership to her team. And it’s interesting, she gets more pushback from the women on her team for being too direct than she does from the men on her team as well. So, she’s viewed more negatively.

And she’s just being authentic to who she is, right? She operates in a very direct manner. She’s forthright. She wants people to deal forthrightly with her. But, but, the, the, some of the women that she works with want a softer person,

Dr. Janke: Oh no. See, I like Hershey. Be a [00:28:00] great boss to me. I don’t need the bedside manner. Please just tell me just the facts.

Doug: It’s good, good, better or best, right? I mean, don’t tell me this is good. Tell me how it can be better or best.

Dr. Janke: And I dare to ask this question, is there a difference? And you can ask her this and maybe, is there a difference in age groups? In other words, my projection onto the situation just presented would be that the younger women would have more issue with her directness versus the older women.

Doug: No, I would actually say it was the reverse.

Dr. Janke: Hmm.

Doug: and, but I would say,

Dr. Janke: My theory.

Doug: I would say it’s the reverse largely because of history and habit of who maybe some of those other team members have been led by in the past.

Dr. Janke: I see. So they were used to a softer approach. I see. Okay.

Doug: Or they were used to being able to manipulate a softer boss.

Kelly: Interesting.

Dr. Janke: Yeah, yeah.

Kelly: Which could [00:29:00] also be the point, which could also

Doug: Leo.

Dr. Janke: Love

Kelly: You mentioned before mentorship and one thing that you talk about is mentoring. Other women, you’re a self-esteem mentor. Can you talk about that? Was that a natural byproduct of your work you just got sought out to help…

Dr. Janke: it was posted…

Kelly: in the Secret Service…

Dr. Janke: It was my work, both as a special agent and in the world of international executive protection, that I realized how important my own self-esteem was to survival. I ended up doing my whole doctoral dissertation was, I [00:30:00] created what’s called a 13 session Protocol of Cognitive Behavioral Theory based , sessions of how to increase self-esteem in young women. So that was my entire dissertation. Yeah. So I spent about a year studying all the data and all the research. So you, the way it works is you choose your age group, which for me was emerging adulthood, which is 18 to 25. Then you look at the issues in that age group. Related to self-esteem, and it was depression, anxiety, physical pain, like there were, it wasn’t just the mental, it was also physical cancer patients.

And then you go, okay, what could, what could increasing self-esteem do for these women? So what comes out of it, and it, I happen to pick that age group, but it’s really all age groups, is not only are you less susceptible to. Bouts of mental illness, but you also recover more quickly with a higher, higher level of self-esteem.[00:31:00] 

Doug: And, and Kelly, I would add, by the way, when, when Mary Beth and I were both in, in federal service, mentoring was not the thing within the service that it is, has become. Come today. And I know in, in my case specifically, probably stronger mentoring would’ve encouraged me to stay longer and,

Dr. Janke: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Mentorship. It’s like mentorship. Harden the F up, get back to work.

Doug: exactly.

And, yet now both where we are in our particular points and careers, I would say that I certainly feel that mentoring is one of the things I get the greatest joy out of on a, on a regular basis.

Dr. Janke: Love it. I do enjoy it,

Doug: Yeah. And…

Dr. Janke: I, I kind of consider paying it forward. I had so many people helping me along the way that, like, how can I say no?

Doug: Well, I also think too, you hit a point in your career where there’s a limit to what you can do as an individual contributor, but there’s an unlimited amount of what you can do as a leverager. And so the ability to mentor others is what’s [00:32:00] gonna allow you to take your one plus one and actually turn it into a multiplication effect.

, through, through that leveraging.

Dr. Janke: Yeah. Interesting way to look at… I love it. Yeah. I don’t know if I answered your question, Kelly, but I think so.

Kelly: Yes, yes, you did well, and I ask open-ended questions because it just furthers the conversation. So there really is never, I’m never looking for, this is the black and white answer because it all depends. Right? That’s, that’s the amazing thing. One thing I wrote down was your response versus react. And I think that is so important, not only in the workplace, In general, whether you’re managing people or not, just, as your individual, as you’re trying to establish yourself in a workplace environment or in a career, but also in situational awareness.

Like how do you respond in a manner that keeps you calm or that keeps your wits about you, [00:33:00] I guess you could say, versus a reaction, which is not

Doug: for our listeners, can you define what you mean Mary Beth, by the difference between respond and

Dr. Janke: Yeah. So, what they say is that, the one constant in life has changed, right? And some people don’t deal with that very well, and so they tend to react over response. So when we respond, it is more thought out, we see the situation, we might need to take a two, a breath. Okay. Say for example, Doug.

You receive a text from somebody and your initial response is like, you’re like, F you, like how dare you, blah, blah, blah. And then you’re like, okay, let me put my phone down. Let me give it a minute. Maybe sometimes even overnight. And the next day you’re like, oh, whatever. Like, who cares? , Hey, yeah, that works for me, blah, blah, blah.

Completely different. Now there are some situations where you do need to respond or react in the moment. Reacting is typically very knee jerk. it’s without thought. It is the [00:34:00] more natural brain thing. We used to do it for survival. It was, there’s a big wooly mammoth or there’s a giant grizzly bear.

Holy shit, I gotta survive and I’m gonna do whatever it takes, right? So that fight, flight, freeze. This day and age, that’s not so adaptive. So we have to figure it out, and it takes work, or maybe in e if it. If it’s something right in the moment and somebody’s yelling at you really wanna sort of punch ’em in the face, right?

You take a breath, and I do this all the time myself. I’ll give you the best example. I tell people all the time, and then you just exhale and you just look at the person. You’re like,  what?  Again, what? Do I wanna convey as a person, Kelly, in the workplace, especially as women and leaders, is that is, and it might not be the same for men, I can’t say, Doug can say, how do we want to be perceived as somebody that handles stress really well and that manages whatever comes at them better [00:35:00] than like I did yesterday?

And I do think it takes practice. So, You have to think of, and this is what most people will say when they’ve reacted, God, that was, that’s so not me. That doesn’t even, like, that’s not even like my values. I can’t believe I said or did that to that person. And you end up feeling like crap. The fact of the matter is you do that and you keep doing that as a style.

It can affect both your mental and physical health truth. Studies, data, et cetera. The, but going back to, don’t blame yourself if you’re making this great effort to respond and not react, and then one day you react, listen, I still do, but here’s my best example. you’re driving down the street and some days someone cuts you off and you’re like, oh yeah, no big deal, whatever.

And on another day you’re like, beep, beep. you’re flipping them off and you’re like, almost like chasing them down the street, like a road train incident, ? I’m not, say I’ve gone, I haven’t gone to that stage, but I literally will be like, Mary Beth, take a few [00:36:00] breaths. What is going on?

Why are you being like that? That’s not you. So I will literally, I’ll be in my car and I’ll just be taken a few deep breaths and I’ll just like, okay, I don’t know what was going on. Maybe I just had too much in my mind. Maybe I, someone pissed me up, whatever it was, but like, refocus, recenter, and how do we get to that more consistent?

Like you mentioned consistency earlier, Doug. How do we get to that more consistent stage of responding and not reacting? , you do things like meditation, like deep breathing and , I have said this, via, some, social media post. I had a friend that probably like a year and a half, two years ago, was kind of saying, ah, I just kind of stopped meditating cause I just suck at it.

I just wasn’t really good at it. Every day she looks at me and she goes, Mary Beth, she goes, you can just sit in a chair and breathe for a minute. That’s meditating. And I was like, yeah, who doesn’t have a minute [00:37:00] just to like, step away from your desk. I don’t know, like I have a chair in my office.

Just go sit in that chair or go to a different part of the house or walk around and breathe and recenter and go like, get like shake out the stress and refocus of who am I? Why am I getting sort of bent outta shape? Right. What and, and how am I like stress management? God. Talk about self-awareness, stress management.

What are you doing to manage your stress on a daily basis?

Doug: So.

Dr. Janke: I’m a huge stress management person.

Doug: As I listen to you talk about that difference between responding versus reacting, if I separate out the time component, right? So taking away the immediacy of it, what, to me, I land on the distinction is, the foundation of preparedness separated from emotion, and I don’t mean being emotionless, but separated from the emotion of the moment.

And but supported by [00:38:00] being prepared for having thought about how to deal with things. That’s, that to me is the, when we think about somebody who’s reacted versus responded, it’s, it’s quick, it’s, there’s some strong emotion involved in it and it’s

Dr. Janke: a defensive survival thing.

Doug: And it’s often rooted in fear, right?

A out instead of preparedness.

Dr. Janke: Right, and like we can’t be prepared for everything. Like we never know what, again, that one constant in life has changed. We don’t know ever what’s gonna come our way, but like what do you get out of like cursing out somebody? Or again, sometimes it feels great in the moment, let’s be honest, but in the long term you kind of walkway and go, was that like, would I do that again?

Like how could I have handled that better? , and we do it with our partners a lot too. You’re just like, oh God, I could have handled that a little bit better as we, we spend a day not talking because we’re both so like, , so yeah, I think, I think it’s complicated in that it’s a decision.[00:39:00] 

It is a decision, it’s a choice. I’m all about, like, that kind of goes into the, my whole mindset thing is it is a choice. Like I’m gonna choose to be a person who responds more and reacts less. I made that decision a while ago once I really learned the difference and got really understood it. And it’s kind of been like my really popular, webinar slash in-person thing this year for some reason.

Doug: But if you live in white, right, going to Cooper’s color codes, right? If you live in white, you’re almost definitionally gonna be driven towards reaction rather than response. As opposed to if you live in a place where you recognize there’s only constant is change. That the world has risks in it and that you’re, you leave the house never knowing what risk you may face, but prepared to face the risks that may come, then you’re in a better position to respond rather than risk.

Dr. Janke: But explain to me Cooper’s White.

Doug: Sorry. Jeff Cooper, the shooting instructor at gun site, who talked about the color codes. So white, [00:40:00] yellow, orange, red, and black. And meaning that white means you have almost no awareness of what’s happening or taking place around you. Yellow, and he said, far too many people live in white. Right.

They just think the world’s a good place and there’s nothing bad that could ever happen. And yes, and, and really most people ought to live in yellow. And it takes it, part of the premise is that it takes time to go from white to yellow, and in order to respond to a threat you need to. Escalate into a higher level in order to respond to a threat that’s approaching you.

And it takes time to do that. So if you’re already, if you’re in white, it takes longer to get to red and responding than it does if you’re in yellow or if you’re in orange. Right?

Dr. Janke: Understood. That makes sense to me.

Doug: And his principle would be, we should naturally be in yellow, which is, hey, the world’s a dangerous place. Be careful out there and, and then you go to orange intentionally when you are entering into what is a higher threat.

Dr. Janke: Okay.

Doug: It may be a time bound issue. It may be a [00:41:00] geographic bounded issue. It may be an activity based that drives that into a higher risk factor. And then red is where things are happening. And you wanna avoid going into black because black’s where you get tunnel vision, everything narrows and you lose your ability to to respond to things.

Dr. Janke: Yeah. And I think, for, for people, that have dealt, and I, and I’m, I’m speaking of people in law enforcement in general, people in the military, people that I’ve had to deal with. God talks about challenging people, shitty situations, dangerous situations, et cetera. I think you get better at it the more you are tested.

So, right. If you’re always in white, you’re through complete cluelessness, you’re just gonna kind of react. And there’s the lack of self-awareness, obviously, because. Yeah, so I think, yeah, I think it’s interesting to bring in Cooper’s colors. Now that I understand. I thought you were saying like the person’s in white, so they’re always calm, and I’m like, well, then they would respond more, but now I

Doug: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

Dr. Janke: yeah. No, yeah.[00:42:00] 

Kelly: Yeah. But, and, and I think one thing that keeps coming up in this conversation is there’s no light switch. There’s no magic for anyone that all of a sudden you’re. Going to respond in the best way possible, in

Dr. Janke: It is?

Kelly: possible. That this is a constant daily practice. It’s a, it’s, it’s the atomic habits.

If you’ve read by James Clear, I love that. It’s the tiny daily habits that you do. Consistency over time is gonna have the biggest results in a positive way in your life. Whether that’s meditating every day. Whether that’s practicing self-awareness every day, whether that’s practicing situational awareness of your environment, and, there’s conversations around, well, how do we establish a baseline of our environments to notice when something’s off or an anomaly and it’s, well, first you have to.

Get into practice of, well, what do you normally expect to see in your house, in your workplace, in your [00:43:00] grocery store, in the roads you travel? ? And it’s not always looking for a specific threat, not always going to an immediate paranoia level. It’s just, it’s being aware. And that’s for me, where the situational awareness or the self-awareness piece comes in with situational awareness. Because what might be off for me, Wouldn’t necessarily be off for another person. It could potentially, I use the growing up in the country versus urban environment for me to hear rifles shooting, shotguns going off. Immediately go, well, what time of year it is? Is it duck, deer, duck hunting opener?

Is it deer hunting? Is someone just…

Dr. Janke: Yeah.

Kelly: like it doesn’t cause me to go into somebody’s shooting. Now growing up in an urban environment, you hear gunshots and immediately you’re hitting the deck, you’re hitting the floor. You’re like, oh my gosh, what’s going on? And so it’s like, that to me is a, that’s an example of [00:44:00] being self-aware that then, oh wait, I’m in an urban environment, so they shouldn’t be, it shouldn’t matter that it’s duck hunting, season opener, type thing.

So that’s situational awareness. Building up

Dr. Janke: every day.

Kelly: , is so important and is key. In building those skills no matter what they are. And I wanted to bring up too quickly, I know we’re getting towards the end of our conversation here, is your TEDx Greensboro. Congratulations on getting that. I know when you posted I was like, ah, it’s on my bucket list.

I’m gonna get there. You just, you were in the Greensboro in 2022.

Dr. Janke: Oh,

Kelly: event and it is live, people can go. We will put that in the show episode key so that all of our listeners can go and watch it. You don’t even have to worry about trying to Google and search for it. We’ll put that link right in there.

, but you talk about living boldly. You talk about, and this kind of goes back to earlier in our conversation, you were surrounded [00:45:00] by people who wanted you to be beige. So can you talk a little bit, don’t give away the

Dr. Janke: that, that

Kelly: talk about the

Dr. Janke: That’s the thread that pulls through, right? And, it’s, choose a bold color. Like, listen, being beige sometimes is okay. Like you can still be a badass. because the title of the talk is How to Live a Badass Life at any age. And what I’m saying is like, I, I don’t think Covid helped people as far as living boldly.

, I think people got into patterns of, gee, what’s the next, season of whatever on Netflix, Hulu, every platform out there. And it got to be this sort of like the same food, same show, same whatever. And it has cost people, for some people, Depression, anxiety [00:46:00] exacerbated, substance use disorders, and other things.

And my whole point I, in the timing I think was really good is it’s never too late, right? You could be 12 and watch my TED talk and you can be 82 and watch my TED talk and get incentivized to just live even a smidge. More boldly and do something like for somebody that’s like in their, in their eighties or even early nineties, they could say, I always wanted to do that darn, crochet class.

I always wanted to go to Italy. and, but I’m just gonna do whatever. And it’s like, there’s so much fear. Behind people, the choices. Again, I go into the choice again of choosing not to do things. And I would hate, my, my thing is no regrets. I mean, yes, whatever, you can have whatever, but , the simplest thing that’s like, it could be something as [00:47:00] bold as jumping out of an airplane or something as simple as, I don’t know, going to. some kind of music concert. Not crazy, but like in the park in the summer that you think you don’t like, but at least you did it and you didn’t sit at home and watch another freaking episode of whatever stupid show. We’ll be there tomorrow. Right. So that’s kind of the idea. And I bring in both, neurological science, so the fight flight fear, and then I bring in psychological science, which again is the cognitive behavioral theory.

, which is like my whole basis of talking to my clients because I believe that mindset matters and what we tell ourselves, translates into our behavior and how we live our life, mediated by the motions that that can create. So that’s kind of how. It ends. And as we talked about, there is a little call to action at the end of that, TedTalk.

Kelly: [00:48:00] Yes, and, and that was one thing I had mentioned wanting to challenge all of our listeners. Today is at the end of Mary Beth’s Ted Talk. She does have a little challenge, and it’s not overwhelming. This is not, I mean, if you wanna use it as an excuse to go to Italy and eat your way through Italy and drink your way through Italy, like she suggests, go right ahead.

Because that was like, Ooh, I just got permission done. I’m going to Italy. no, but there is a call to action that I. And challenging all of our listeners is go listen to Doc Mary Beth Ted talk, which again will be in the episode notes. So you can go to the diamond era group.com/podcast and get that. and obviously if you’re listening to this podcast, then it’s in the show notes, but I wanna challenge you to do it and then share. What you did or how, and make sure you tag the Diamond Arrow Group Texas by dad and Doc Mary Beth. Again, they’ll be in the show notes. do it [00:49:00] the exercise. And to your point, doc, Mary Beth, I think there’s some things as, it doesn’t have to be this big, monental thing. It could be taking a pottery class.

I actually just shared, a story of two

Dr. Janke: is awesome.

Kelly: to travel around the world in their eighties because they’d always wanted to, and it was so cool and I sent it to my bestie, like, we’re totally doing this. So mark your calendar, for when, for when

Doug: Because I was thinking like the whole concept of a, of a bucket list is

Kelly: …a once…

Doug: …concept…

Kelly: Go ahead, Doug.

Doug: It presupposes that you’re gonna put this stuff off and do it at some point in time later. And in reality, what you’re suggesting is to live boldly today, such that there’s no list left in essence because you’ve just chosen to live that life throughout.

Dr. Janke: Mm-hmm. Like what I did for this year, I don’t, I don’t believe in resolutions, so I just said I was gonna do something different every month. that was kind of like things I’ve been, [00:50:00] putting off, like doing like here doing. I finally have listened to Brene’s Brown Atlas of the Heart via audiobook.

I’ve done a mindfulness meditation class. I am gonna make my way to a fricking, ice plunge, which I’m kind of putting off to warmer weather, but I am gonna do it.

Kelly: No. Mary Beth, you can come up here. We still got ice in the water. You come up here.

Dr. Janke: Trust me, I’ve already found the location and I am gonna do it.

Kelly: Come on, you can go.

Dr. Janke: do it, it’s gonna be a plunge. I’m not doing a bath, but I am gonna do a plunge. just something I don’t wanna do and that I put off. And like, why? It’s like, I don’t know what, 30 seconds of discomfort, like how, how hard is that?


Doug: I would confuse things that I want to do, but .

Kelly: Yep.

Dr. Janke: Yes, but sometimes there’s growth in discomfort.

Doug: No, I understand that there’s plenty of things I wanna do that scare the crap outta me, so I’m happy to, you

Dr. Janke: Oh, good. Good. I [00:51:00] wanna hear about them.

Doug: Yeah.

Dr. Janke: Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah. and it was funny, when I was listening to your TED Talk, it made me think of my childhood dentist. So literally, this was the same dentist I went to all the time, grew up every time we went, he took pictures of your… when you were first, nowadays, I don’t know if you could do this, but he would take pictures of every patient and then put it on this wall.

So this entire wall had all these just head pictures of people, kids, mostly because he was a pediatric dentist. And so it was always fun to go and see, find yourself. But I’ll never forget, and it was literally the last time I went there, only because I was now an adult and was not pretty much, pretty much, didn’t fit in the chair anymore, but he made the comment, I was talking, all these exciting adventures I had planned.

It was before I moved to Southern California. So I was excited about that. Like, I’m getting outta here. And he made the comment [00:52:00] like, well, the older you get, the more mediocre

Dr. Janke: Ow.

Kelly: get. And I remember thinking, what? No way. Like almost sad for him. I was like, oh, well that’s not gonna be me. What do you mean?

Dr. Janke: gotten some really great feedback and that that’s the

Kelly: …don’t know if he’s still around. I’m not gonna say his name, just in case he is.

Dr. Janke: …all that work. And I will tell you, if you wanna talk on the side about doing a TED Talk, it’s a lot of work. It was worth it.

Kelly: Well, I’m glad you did it because it, it inspires

Dr. Janke: so. It’s only 15 minutes, so it’s not

Kelly: our listeners, especially when they go into your challenge at the end.

Dr. Janke: Oh.

Kelly: Gosh. Not at all. Not at all. In fact, it was one of those where I wanted you to talk longer, hence asking you to be a guest on Thrive Unafraid. So that’s that.

But before we, before we wrap up, what would you say is, if you could send our listeners with one takeaway, what is [00:53:00] one takeaway that

Dr. Janke: a badass.

Kelly: want them

Dr. Janke: Everybody’s a badass. They just have to believe in themselves, and live again. Let’s say you have a crappy day, a crappy week, a crappy month tomorrow starts another opportunity. So choose well, live boldly, and be nice to yourself, like self-criticism. Get rid of that. Again, you can be hard on yourself because nobody else is gonna be, it’s what’s gonna get you further in life.

I hate self-criticism, so it’s not, it’s not productive. It screws up the mindset

Kelly: Yeah.

Dr. Janke: and doesn’t lead to any positive benefits. So believe in you.

Kelly: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Doug. Do you have anything before we say our goodbyes?

Dr. Janke: Thanks for having me guys. This is really

Kelly: Well, thank you again, Mary Doc, Mary Beth for coming on the show. I appreciate your time. [00:54:00] Yes. We could talk for hours, so I have a feeling you, we will be back and , like I said, if your original location for

Doug: Come to New

Kelly: plunge, cold water plunge falls through, you are more than welcome

Dr. Janke: And you guys will film it. Thanks. Yeah.

Kelly: nine months out of the year. Oh yeah. We’ll ta we’ll hashtag,

Dr. Janke: Thank

Kelly: Merry Best TED Talk.

Dr. Janke: Thanks.

Kelly: badass. All right, well, goodbye. Thank you listeners. Thank you as always for downloading. Epic next time.