Episode #19 Transcript - Leaning Into Uncertainty and Tapping into your Intuition with Bryan Niederhelm


Kelly: Hi, and welcome to this episode of Thrive Unafraid. Today, Doug and I have. The distinct pleasure of having Brian Niederhelm from Gavin DeBecker and Associates on with us. A quick intro to Brian. Brian directs threat assessment practitioners who are responsible for the assessment and management of thousands of cases of inappropriate pursuit, threats, and harassment, including situations involving mentally ill stalkers, disgruntled current and former employees, stalkers who pursue their victims at the workplace, Interpersonal stalking and domestic violence.

He provides consultation on safety and privacy for at-risk individuals, and he has managed some of the nation’s most sensitive investigations for public figures. Brian also directs a staff of intelligence analysts on behalf of at risk individuals and public figures traveling internationally. He oversees [00:01:00] GDBA, Advanced Threat Assessment Academy, and Mosaic Threat Assessment Systems.

He has worked with the U.S. Secret Service and foreign government agencies during the planning and implementation of security operations involving public figures, U. S. presidents, and foreign heads of state. Brian served in the U S Marine Corps. He was a member of the elite embassy security battalion responsible for safety of us diplomats in Kyrgyzstan and Israel.

Did I pronounce that right?

Bryan: Yes,

Kelly: And Brian, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to have you on a little behind the scenes story for our listeners. Brian and I were introduced at a meeting in LA where I was speaking. And, I don’t forget who introduced us, but some, for some reason was like, “Oh, Hey, here’s Ryan.”

And immediately we started talking about what books we were reading, how we thought about learning and expertise and, ignorance. And I mean, we just went into a deep [00:02:00] dive on all of these really great conversations and about five minutes. So, We’ve always had that great connection and able to have really good conversation, which I was so excited to bring you on the show because that’s something that Doug and I love to have some of those deeper discussions and question what people assume. What they think about the way the world works. So welcome Brian to the show.

Doug: Yeah, welcome. And, and of course, most of our listeners know already though, that the, the gift of fear has been foundational to Kelly’s journey and the journey of so many others. And obviously Gavin putting that together did such a great service for so many folks as, as he began to give people the, the, the language to talk about and ways to think about, understanding themselves, fear and, and how to protect themselves.

Kelly: And that’s one thing just in case GDBA is Gavin DeBecker and associates, which is where [00:03:00] Brian is employed. And Gavin DeBecker wrote gift of fear. One of the foundational sources of knowledge that is out there regarding intuition, situational awareness, more specifically geared towards women. And like I always say, Gavin’s Gift of Fear is awesome and I love it, but I was looking for a female version of or a female perspective of that thought process or that, that mindset. And that’s really where the organic growth of Diamond Arrow Group came from, because I was like, there’s gotta be more than just one book out there on this topic and from a female perspective. now there is.

Bryan: That book has served, that book has served as an inspiration, I think, for a lot of people like you. So it’s great. I’ve spoken to so many women who have expressed different things and some have created their own companies and training services. [00:04:00] So it’s, it’s a great book to read and to gain value out of and to give, like you said, Doug, language to intuition and how to express it.

But, yeah, so I’m, I’m really glad. And that was actually one of the first things that we talked about, Kelly, was intuition and the gift of fear. And it was Detective Madero of LAPD that introduced us. At that event. So thank you to him for making this podcast happen

Kelly: yeah, I’ll make sure to, to let them know. Hey, thanks. Great job. And you’re introducing Brian and I. So one of the things that we really, because we could talk for hours, but one of the things that I really wanted to, to hone in on was some of your more recent writings on medium. Because you went really into your thoughts on gray thinking on how wisdom is acquired and how you gain expertise.

And it’s fascinating [00:05:00] stuff to me because so often we assume expertise and knowledge comes from a four year institution or years of studying a martial art or whatever it may be. And one of the things that you had mentioned is expertise can also be, you’ve lived in the same area for a while and you know how to get around without using GPS. And I really liked that subtle example that you used because it removes some of the fear or, or intimidation, I would say for women when it comes to personal safety. They feel, well, I can’t, I don’t have a background in executive protection, in martial arts, in physical athletic abilities. Well, I’m screwed.

And it’s like, no, no, no, no, you have natural instincts and gifts that you’ve already gained so many years of experience, whether that’s in a caretaking role or [00:06:00] how you conduct your daily life, how you know where your kids are in the house, whatever the situation may be. All you need to do is learn how to use those skills from a perspective shift of two personal safety.

So, one of the things just to start off is you talk about in gray thinking, you have the opening quote. It doesn’t matter if you’re a beginner or an expert, as long as you’re on the path. If a beginner is on the path, all they need is time. If an expert is on the path. They won’t be in, or if an expert is off the path, excuse me, they won’t be an expert for long.

And that’s from James Clear, who wrote atomic habits. What is the path? Yeah, I

Bryan: What is the path?

Kelly: What is the path?

Bryan: Well, I think it’s going to look different for everybody but I tend to think really abstract and so I use a hiking analogy or a journey [00:07:00] analogy a lot in what I wrote because that really helped me to just make sense Of it and so if I picture myself on a hike, like the path to wisdom ultimately is, starts with information that is just out there everywhere.

More accessible than at any time in human history. And that’s, and that’s where a lot of people just assume that it’s knowledge and assume that it’s accurate and we can veer off course. So what you need to do is you need to take information and you need to figure out ways, strategies, concepts to infer its accuracy.

And then once, once it becomes accurate, now it becomes knowledge. And then once you actually infer. The knowledge that is relevant to your situation. That’s when it becomes understanding. And then once you actually put your understanding into practice, that’s when it starts to become expertise. And you’re now [00:08:00] constantly going through this process where you’re gaining new information, you’re inferring its accuracy, you’re moving it to knowledge, you’re, Determining its relevance.

You put it into practice and you build more expertise and more expertise. And, and that’s where I think I know for me, I started to rest on my laurels and, and, and not constantly question my expertise. So I think no matter what you’re doing, like you said, if you’re driving and you’re getting used to your community and you’re, you’re doing it subconsciously, that creates risk.

And it’s the same with any expertise as you build up. And you acquire all these abilities, you, you come to a place where you actually become blind to a lot of things, and your ego sometimes gets in the way, your experience gets in the way, your expertise becomes more complex, and that gets in the way, and, and so it’s our job, I believe, as experts in anything that we do as [00:09:00] parents, as advisors to clients, it’s, That it’s our obligation to constantly question and and try to level up and purge the expertise that we’ve built that is becomes sort of irrelevant after a while so that our understanding can evolve and then we can build new expertise and it’s just this constant process that we go through and when you do it well that’s when you reach wisdom and wisdom is sort of what what remains afterwards it’s it’s the the the expertise you that sustains, and that’s what’s I think in The Gift of Fear, as we talked about, what Gavin talks about in that book is timeless.

It the book a lot of people it’s still one of the best selling books if not the best selling book on personal safety, but it was written in the 90s And and it’s because it’s timeless. It’s wisdom. Anyways, I don’t know if that answers your question Kelly, but that’s my answer.

Kelly: Yeah, no, [00:10:00] it did. And it made me go off in a whole bunch of different tangents. One is I always like to apply the analogy to everyday life. So you bring up driving. And I think when we talk about complacency and our expertise, that we get comfortable, it becomes a subconscious thing. We do how many people drive the exact same route to work, to the grocery store every time and, where I live right now, we are in major road construction season, so therefore every time I drive to my destination.

Inevitably, it feels like they’ve shut down another road and now I’ve got to go back to my brain and say, okay, which way can I take to get there now? And so I think that is a healthy process of continually stretching and not getting complacent in, well, I, I have to go this route. This is the only solution to the problem I’m facing or [00:11:00] whatever I’m looking at my journey.

When you talk about the path and how. Much it serves us to, to still be open and to still consider other routes, to not take for granted that this way is always going to work.

Bryan: It’s such a perfect analogy. I don’t even think you realize how perfect that analogy is because even when there’s not construction On your route your route should always be under construction

Doug: Right. Well, right.

Kelly: Right from a safety perspective. You’re

Doug: There’s two motivators to battling complacency. One where there’s that external force that forces you, like the construction that’s making you change your pattern or there’s your choice to, to force it. Right. And so I think that’s what Brian’s getting at is that choice has to, should be a daily choice you make to take ownership of it so that you’re not forced into reacting to it when the situation changes around you, you’re [00:12:00] already.

Proactive in how you approach it. Likewise, when he was talking about earlier, the idea of learning or continuing to learn that the idea that you can stay static and maintain at anything, any level of expertise is kind of a lie. Because if you’re not growing, you’re eroding, right? And so you have to make a conscious decision, conscious investment, in order to just maintain pace, if not improve on or develop new skills.

Kelly: funny. You should mention pace because Brian and we’re interrupting you because I’m like, wait, I have your words. I want to quote Brian. You said our expertise shelf life is becoming shorter as the pace of knowledge accelerates. And then you quoted Liz Wiseman’s book. If the amount of information in science doubles every nine months and decays at 30 percent a year, how long does one’s expertise last?

I don’t know if you remember this, [00:13:00] but you in your writing,

Bryan: the answer…

Kelly: …save you the math.

Doug: …there would be no math, Kelly.

Kelly: I know that’s what I said. I was going to give the answer. 15 percent of expertise will be relevant in five years, only 15 percent that. is terrifying and I’m with AI and chat GBT and everything that’s going on.

I’m even challenging, wondering if that is going to change.

Bryan: Oh, it will, because the pace of knowledge is accelerating. So it is. And that’s why I think we really have to figure out as humanity, how do we scale our wisdom more quickly? Because the day of when we were the most intelligent species on the planet is now over and, and so we need to figure out how can we use technology for us so it’s not used on [00:14:00] us and, and so AI, I think, is a whole nother podcast that we can get into.

We actually just, last week, chaired our first AI Think Tank. And, some interesting things came out of it, but again, I don’t want to get too far down that rabbit hole but it is, it makes a very good point about how we really need, again, whether we’re parents, whether we’re, if, if it’s in our careers, we have to be so conscious and, and intentional about evolving our expertise.

Kelly: And I think that’s something that’s really scary. And I agree. AI is an entirely separate episode, if not multiple episodes, because it’s, I was just at the ATAP threat management conference last month. And there was a couple of sessions. Starting to tiptoe, dip the toe in the [00:15:00] water. We have to have the conversation about what I ate.

AI looks like, and there’s so many unknowns, but yet we can’t wait to the point of we can’t wait for all the information to come out because the information is never all going to be out there. It’s gonna be an evolution of learning. And so to me, I look at it from the everyday person’s perspective.

What are some of the things that I need to think about right now that is a threat? Because I lack knowledge and what can I do to overcome maybe the fear of being ignorant or the fear of looking seeming ignorance and I know that you, you talk about how ignorance isn’t necessarily a negative thing so you can talk to that but what can we, what real advice Can you give, from your perspective, to the everyday person who is completely overwhelmed, not knowing even where to [00:16:00] start, when it comes to personal safety and artificial intelligence?

Bryan: That’s a big question there. Let’s see how to unpack that one. Well, I think we have to back up a little bit. So we’ve talked about the gift of fear. Intuition is at the heart of it. Of that book. And so I think what we need to consider is how do we program our subconscious, our intuitive brain, so that in those moments where we need to use it, and it tells us what to do, it’s as accurate as it can be.

And, and so that’s one of the reasons why I started to write about uncertainty, because frankly, I didn’t understand it. I knew that it was at the heart of a lot of the decisions, and what I realized is [00:17:00] that it’s really at the heart of every decision that Humans make, whether it’s, we’re going to keep using, or maybe I will.

This analogy, is parenting on one side and, and advising clients about, how to avert various types of risks on the other side. and uncertainty is happening all the time. And so I think we have to get comfortable with the degree of uncertainty and just accept that we’re never going to have. A decision in our lives or a circumstance where there is zero uncertainty.

And so the question then becomes, what can we do to reasonably decrease uncertainty? In the decision making that we have, because that’s where I think most, anxiety comes from. And that’s what I really love. [00:18:00] Also, if we want to get into language a little bit about the name of your podcast thrive and unafraid, you take those two words.

If so, the definition of being unafraid is basically living without fear or anxiety. So it basically what we’re talking about is not the fear that we all like and that Gavin talks about in the gift of fear, which is that fear that shows up in the face of danger, the fear that, is useful. It gets your body ready for combat.

It makes you do things without even having to think about it. What you’re trying to help your audience with is, is helping them live without the fear that comes from anxiety. And, and so, deepening our understanding of uncertainty and how it looks in life, and what we can realistically do to control it, to reduce it, I think [00:19:00] will…

Empower and enable people to live unafraid. So anyways, I felt like in order to answer your question sort of have to go back to the beginning because I think also by going back to the beginning when people are experiencing anxiety will help them not to experience anxiety. To just go back to the source of our fears to take a principled understanding and look at things and not to overcomplicate it because that’s what we tend to do and we tend because we sense uncertainty and our brains hate uncertainty.

I don’t know if you read this quote in what I wrote, but Beau Lotto wrote a great book called Deviate. And the most powerful quote for me in that entire book is something along the lines of, Uncertainty is the problem our brains evolved to solve. It is…our brains hate it. [00:20:00] Whether, again,

Kelly: I did. I actually have that in my notes. I pulled

Bryan: it is, it is so powerful.

So, so just accept that your brain doesn’t like it. And when you start to have emotional reactions to things, it’s usually tied to how your brain consciously or subconsciously is perceiving things, the uncertainty of things. And so that’s where what I wrote and a lot of the great thinking work in the concepts that that really enable and put great thinking into practice, helps people to actually now take a situation, the amount of uncertainty that exists and and apply it in a way to where they can reduce it.

And when you reduce uncertainty, guess what happens? The body starts to feel better. It’s not releasing the same chemicals that are causing the anxiety to show up. So,

Kelly: I was just going to say, is it uncertainty or are you trying to let go of anxiety because you’re trusting [00:21:00] that like the quote, our brains have evolved to solve it?

Doug: But reducing, reducing

Kelly: faced uncertainty,

Doug: uncertainty helps reduce anxiety.

Bryan: right. So

Kelly: never completely reduce uncertainty. So really, is it a focus of reducing the, well, I guess, yeah, because you’re gaining expertise.

Bryan: and you have to, look, you might, let’s just say, let’s use numbers for example. You start off in a situation and you’re sensing that there’s, it’s a, it’s ten, right? Uncertainty is what you’re feeling and you’re really anxious about it. And now you can take it down to a five. It doesn’t matter that it’s, it’s never going to be a zero, right, but you’ve, you’ve reduced it.

Now you feel better. And, and so that’s where I think, to Doug’s point, right, when you, when you take whatever uncertainty is there and you apply Techniques and strategies and concepts and you reduce it down to a six, even, or even an [00:22:00] eight, you’re now going to feel better about it. And then you have to decide, what else can I do?

How much time do I have? Can I do more here? Is it practical? Do I have to just accept the amount of uncertainty and make decisions based upon what I know at this moment? And that’s where a lot of the concepts, that actually mobilize great thinking come into play.

Doug: I’d just add to that. Not only have you literally reduced your anxiety or fear or uncertainty from that 10 to an 8 to a 6 to whatever it is, but you’ve also taught yourself that you could do that, right? So it becomes a self reinforcing loop that says, okay, so I’ve dealt with that. I can deal with that, a similar uncertainty in the future, which then makes it easier to take that down.

It’s again, we’ve talked about, Cooper’s color codes in the past, but working through that process makes it easier to come down or, or, or respond as you need to. There’s a great [00:23:00] book by an author named Annie Duke, and she wrote a book called Thinking and Bets, and it’s, it’s a great book for thinking about how to manage decision making in the face of uncertainty.

It’s not explicitly a. book or even a business book, although it has applications in both of those spaces. But it’s a book specifically talking about how do you make decisions in the face of uncertainty? And

Bryan: so great.

Doug: in what we’re talking about here, part of what you need to be able to do is make decisions in the face of uncertainty at very rapid Pace, in order to be able to, to respond to react to what you’re seeing.

But again, it’s just like any other skillset. You can build the muscle memory of going through how to reduce uncertainty and get better at it. And as, as

Bryan: It’s like anything, right, Doug? You get better over time. You don’t walk in the gym and, and do a workout and expect to be stronger instantaneously. And it’s the same thing with managing [00:24:00] uncertainty is, and as you said, Doug, your body starts to learn that it can do it and it gets better at it and you keep applying the practices.

And you build up better habits and you get to a point now where your gray thinking muscles are stronger and now they don’t become overpowered by all this information that they’re being bombarded with and the circumstances that are presenting themselves as as uncertain. But it takes, it takes time.

It takes effort. And I think it’s one of the most. Important things that we do at this point in society where we are, it’s there is an epidemic of uncertainty. It’s, I’ll use a diet. So obesity ties perfectly into it because we are consuming too much information. We’re consuming bad information that’s completely irrelevant to the decisions that we face.

And so it’s basically a bad [00:25:00] Information diet that we are that we are consuming and and that leads to more anxiety and that leads to the perception that decisions are harder to make Because our brains just don’t know what to do with all this information and all the bad information I think james clear said something like a because everything that we’re talking about leads also to bad thinking and bad thoughts And he says something to the effect of, a brain or a body filled with junk food struggles to move well, and a brain filled with junk thoughts struggles to think well.

And, and that’s where we’re at in society, western societies in particular, that have social media and all this, other information. Coming at them, whether they want to or not. And, and so here we are,

Doug: it doesn’t even have to [00:26:00] be bad information. It can just be the wrong information to the decision process you’re going through. It makes it just distractive more than anything, right.

Bryan: even water is bad for you. If you drink too much water, right? So yeah, too, too much of anything is not, is not good. In most cases, I can’t really think of anywhere. It is

Doug: And ultimately prevents you from making any decision, much less the right Or wrong lunch.

Kelly: Well, and listening to you guys talk and, and Brian, you brought up a couple of times parenthood. And we’re, we’re all parents here. A lot of our listeners are parents and, but whether you’re not a parent or whether you are a parent, we’ve all heard the, no matter how much, how many books you read, how much you prepare, how many questions you ask that nobody is ever fully ready when it’s time for the baby to arrive, there is so much uncertainty around.

Wait, you leave the hospital and you’re like, wait, you’re trusting me with this small baby [00:27:00] that’s, that’s, I don’t know what I’m doing. And for women, I try and remind them that that’s uncertainty. We going back a little ways to that. Uncertainty is the problem that our brains are evolved to solve.

We evolved. To raise children, everyone talks about, it’s natural, you’ll just figure it out. Nobody has all the answers. There’s so many, different situations and everyone’s different and every baby is different and blah, blah, blah, all these things. And over time you just have to go through it because you want to keep your baby alive.

And then kind of what you’re talking about, you gain confidence. And by the second or your multiple children, you’re,they’re. You’re letting them eat the food that fell on the ground. You don’t, findall of the things you’re not quite as germaphobic as. As you were maybe with the first child and that funny that you had brought up that quote by Bolado is because the, I had written the uncertainty of violence.

We as women don’t need to hide in fear [00:28:00] right now. There’s so much fear, which kind of ties into the consumption of, of media. If you’re getting it too much because if you’re paying too much attention to the headlines and the algorithm is shifting that artificial intelligence is suddenly you liked all the true crime podcasts and suddenly you’re reading all these headlines because I get that from what I study.

And pretty soon we’re like, Oh, good God. Is there any place that a woman is safe anymore? And so that uncertainty of fear of it’s just, it’s inevitable. When is it going to happen to me? When am I going to get attacked? When am, when am I going to be out for a walk? And, and get grabbed from behind or whatever, or when am I going to get into a domestic violent relationship?

When am I going to end up in a situation? And there’s so much uncertainty, but then I feel like we shut down because we go worst case scenario versus saying, no, no, no, we have to get back to the foundational skills. Like Gavin DeBecker talks [00:29:00] about, trusting our subconscious is working for us, our intuition always in response to something and always has our best interest in mind.

I say that in every presentation and I remind them it’s not a prankster. It is not your annoying friend or sibling who’s hiding around the corner waiting to jump out at you and see how loud you scream. Your intuition, you don’t always know. And this was another quote that you had put in your writings that I pulled out.

The human brain processes upwards of 10 million bits of information per second, per second, people, 10 million bits. Yet our conscious mind can only process about 50 to a hundred of those bits. And that’s where it goes back to. We, we’re not always going to consciously know why our intuitional alarm bells went off when it comes to our, our, our safety. And we might

Bryan: And just to put that

Kelly: got to lean into that a little.

Bryan: To put that into context, so this conversation right here is taking up about [00:30:00] 180 to 100 bits of our conscious brain power right now. And so for everyone that I’m not a neuroscience by any stretch. And the numbers that I cited and that you just, shared is just what we know of right now based upon current neuroscience.

But the other 9 million or 10 million bits is all being processed subconsciously. So when we’ve, when the media and when all the information out there is going in, whether we’re processing it consciously or not, and, and it’s. It’s teaching our subconscious, it’s programming our subconscious, and it really, it corrodes the, the link in a way, and, and so that’s why I think to get into maybe a bit more practical things, there was [00:31:00] a, I think I read the four hour work week by Tim Ferriss, maybe wow, more than 15 years ago, and, just like you said earlier, Doug, well, the book, not necessarily about security, right, but so many things translate to different aspects of life.

And so one of the things, there was many in that book that I think translate to what we’re talking about here. But one of them, he calls it the low information diet. I think all of us have to go on a low information diet. And so it’s like, how do you become good curators? Of the information that you allow in, where do you what do you shield yourself from?

How do you go about the feeds that come in? I’’ll just i’ll give you a a really practical example that I have so every night I feed the animals. So I have three cats.

Kelly: [00:32:00] domesticated? I was gonna say, is this domestic, domesticated animals or are you out in nature drawing the bears in?

Bryan: no, no, no, no. There are three, three cats and, and a dog. And so, one of the cats.

Eat slower than the other cats. So I have to put him into our pantry in order for him to be able to eat all of this food. It takes him about five to eight minutes to finish his food. That’s, that’s my timer for how much time I allow myself to have on Instagram. Right? Because I can’t leave him in, if I leave him in there for too long, he’ll jump up on the pantry and start eating food.

Right? And if, so, so I have to, I, I open up and I have curated. I follow, I think only 10 things I go through. Most of them are educational. I laugh a little bit, kind of gets me that, that, a little bit of education, a little bit of [00:33:00] humor into my life right before I retire for the day, but it’s only, eight minutes.

And, and so whatever your system is. Right? If you have a cat that eats slow like me, you could use mine, but whatever your system is, you have to come up with them to control the amount of information and the quality of the information that you’re absorbing.

Doug: I want to come back to the word intuition, if you don’t mind about this, because, you, you’re talking about practical things. And one of the things I hate about the word intuition is so many people go, it’s too squishy a concept that I don’t know how to process it. So it lets them off the hook a little bit.

And if we talk about the combination of subconscious and informed experience, Then maybe we can give them hooks on which to hang choices, right? Because I think when we talk about intuition, we’re talking about those two things plus kind of the animal brain that we’ve got that’s been, that’s evolved over, over [00:34:00] centuries.

We can’t control that because it’s just what we’ve got. But that subconscious is something we can reach consciously, right? We can focus on developing things in that. And then our informed experience is actually the honing mechanism. Right. For, for that decision process that connects back and creates that virtuous loop in there.

So, so many people, when they hear the word intuition, they go, well, that’s intuition. So, what do you do

Kelly: That’s woo woo.

Doug: that’s yeah, it’s, it’s voodoo. And so I think we got to find ways to give them tools or give them the hooks at least to hang the coats of daily experience on so that they can make it active.

Bryan: Yeah, one of the things I, I agree full heartedly, Doug, and, and what I’ve found is that you also need to educate, like myself, even I try to constantly educate myself, but also other people of [00:35:00] what is intuition like deepen our understanding of it before we give them the hooks because , otherwise it’s you you don’t have anything to hook it on, you’re right and so intuition, yes, it’s a, some people think it’s a squishy thing.

It’s much more accepted now than it was decades ago, which is a great thing and, and in part because of the gift of fear and other writings. And I think, so people are more inclined to trust their intuition. But Doug, as, as you’re, I’m going to go back to sort of maybe laying a foundation, but what would be a hook that you’re thinking of for If you are teaching somebody, a tool to apply intuition,

Doug: I guess in my mind, what I’m, what I’m talking through is the [00:36:00] idea that the intuition is a squishy word, not a squishy concept. I was trying to find ways to shore up the foundation of what that word actually means, right? So thinking through going back to early decisioning. events in somebody’s life and talking through what did they do?

How did they instinctually know that that, that dog was not a good, a dog that they can approach versus another dog, right? So building on success, connecting it to those specific activities, right?

Bryan: Yeah. And, and so

Doug: the folks that in evolution, the folks that made the wrong decision, well, they got eaten by dinosaurs.


Bryan: that’s what I was just going to say, and that’s what I think is so great. And that’s, I think what some of the education is that people need to have. If they understand that, that some of the intuition that they have is from, I [00:37:00] think you used the word earlier, Doug of informed. experiences, right? But a lot of it is in your DNA.

Already, the wisdom is there from 200 plus thousand years, since, we, our ancestors, our primitive ancestors, were walking around planet earth, without language, and then, it’s for 60, 000 plus years, you’ve had behavioral, behaviorally modern human beings, 60, 000 years, and, and here we are less than 20 years, Dealing with all this technology.

And so taking some of the informed experiences that you have, but then at the same time understanding that so much of your intuition is coming from all of that hundreds of thousands of years of evolution and and how does that marry up with the environment that we’re living in today? [00:38:00] Because now it’s not the saber tooth tiger that you just described, right?

It’s Feeling threatened because of a job interview, or somebody doesn’t like us at work, or you have to ask for a raise, or you’re walking down a street, in the dark, or, right, it’s, it’s all of these things that is totally different. Context that we’re now operating in and our, and our brains and our, our biology haven’t really evolved that much to catch up to what we now are experiencing in the last couple of decades.

So I think to understand that is a really powerful thing because so often we forget where we came from. And that, that leads to more uncertainty because we have no clue. Why are we even experiencing these things? Why are we feeling anxious right now and realizing, well, it can because. 100, 000 years ago, our [00:39:00] ancestors uncertainty meant that they weren’t going to be able to feed their family or feed themselves, and they were going to die, or they were going to get eaten by somebody.

But now you’re not going to get eaten by any animals, you’re going to get eaten up by society, by…what people believe about you and think about you and your reputation and all these things that really don’t matter then to to survival and a lot of ways they certainly are relevant. But anyways, I would say that not to not to go back for a third time, but Understanding evolution never to forget about it.

And then it’s all right now in these different scenarios that I’m in. How does my intuition show up? How does it help me in my decision making and and trying to bring awareness to that being mindful is a really hard thing to do,  and our subconscious is, and our intuition is, is telling us things and [00:40:00] sending our body signals, and it’s not always accurate, and, Ing,… Ing,… what is it, Ing, Ingmar Goodman, I think it is, I N G, Ingmar Goodman, is that right? He has a quote that is my, let’s see if I can get this right. My intuition is throwing a spear into the jungle. My intellect is going to find the spear. So, how do we apply an intellectual process when we have received an intuition, an intuitive signal? Now, we, yes, you don’t want to discount it, but you, you definitely need to Apply some concepts so that you’re making sure you’re making good decisions.

You don’t want to discount it, Kelly. It, I can tell by

Kelly: Oh, I am like, I know, I’m sorry, and I didn’t want to [00:41:00] interrupt.

Bryan: no, but

Kelly: this is what,

Bryan: at this

Doug: Welcome

Bryan: should interrupt and give an

Doug: to my world, Brian.

Kelly: this is, this is where I, and I am so grateful for both of you, and I know that we all respect each other because this is what makes me, excuse my French, pissed off. All the time is because I am, this is what I was looking for was the information. Well, what do you mean? What is intuition? , what is situational awareness?

And everybody would talk in these great big terms and well, you need to do this. And I was like, well, but how? Nobody could break it down. And that’s where I get really excited about the way I present it because I went to your point back to the foundations is like, okay, well, If the subconscious is taking in all of these bits of information, where are the, where are the bits of information coming from?

Oh, it’s from all of our senses. Well, how do all of our senses work? Because there’s so many misconceptions. Oh, you need to be aware of your surroundings. People think I [00:42:00] got to have my hat on a swivel. I had to be looking around and I’m like, yes. And. Your eyes don’t operate like cameras. Actually, your brain is what’s seeing, the eyes only taking is a filter that’s coming through.

Oh, and your hearing, that works at night. It works around the corner. Your sense of smell, depending on the crowd is the examples I use. And I just saved a video, that was kind of a funny meme of how many of you have, the first alcohol that you overindulged in. Way back when now you can’t even stand the smell of it because you’re instantly your guts churn, you know that that smells are more closely linked to memories and that’s why when you smell a certain perfume, you may think of a human and then the physical touch, we send some things hot without actually having to touch it because we can sense it.

The heat and even our, our taste buds, and that’s where it’s, we have to get so into those levels. [00:43:00] We have to talk about the neural pathways that get created because of those sensory inputs and what you learned good and bad, which is where your orient filter of the OODA loop is formed those experiences, but then also considering cultures.

Also considering the traditions that you were raised with, the influential people in your life. My dad had very specific feelings on Volkswagens. And if you’ve heard my presentation, you know that. He had a very specific dislike for a Volkswagen. And so I grew up with that messaging of that dislike of a brand of cars that had nothing to do with the brand of car.

But that influence shaped my perspective going forward and you can take out the Volkswagen piece and put in anything, a race, an age, color of hair, my dad used to always say, Oh, you don’t blonde jokes. And so it’s like, I grew up thinking, Oh, blondes [00:44:00] are just naturally dumb.

And so until I figured out why are blonde jokes always one liner. So men can understand them. It’s stuff like that, that we get programmed in our head. And, and we have to, to look in knowledge. And so it’s, it’s, it’s tough for me, because there is this, well, it’s your subconscious. It’s an assumptive definition.

Doesn’t everyone know? It’s assumptive common sense. But in all actuality, we don’t take the time to really go deep and say, no, well, how does My sense of sight work with my sense of hearing and how does my subconscious take all those inputs in and Filter it and how does it decide which inputs deserve further recognition from my consciousness?

And that’s where that intuition signal comes from but typically happens so fast heuristics That we don’t always consciously know in that moment, we just have to make a decision. And I would even, and this could [00:45:00] be a whole nother podcast, I would even say, depending on the type of violence, because for most women, when we’re experiencing some sort of interpersonal violence, it’s not quick.

There are plenty of signs leading up to it that. Social contracts, social mores tell us to either ignore, we dismiss because we don’t want to be judgmental or rude and or society is like, “oh, you’re probably overreacting to that early warning sign”, but we’re not having the conversations on those early warning signs.

I think right now, the Danny

Bryan: How do you, how do you have those conversations? I think is the hard part. You don’t always have somebody that you can communicate with. So you have to communicate with yourself. You have to have a conversation with yourself. And sometimes I think people feel embarrassed to express their intuition.

So they don’t even want to have a conversation with somebody. And by the way, I [00:46:00] got the name wrong. It’s Ingmar Bergman, not Goodman, and that quote though, that intellectual process that we go through to explore our intuition and to make sure to, to infer its accuracy basically is, I think, what we’re talking about now, which is how do you have that communication with yourself, what questions, so I try to get to maybe some practical things I like to do. Ask questions and practice framing really good questions.

And so giving people some questions that they could ask themselves I think it’s really good sometimes what I do in a situation where I want to vet an intuition or Something that I a decision i’m facing is I will pretend i’m in a boardroom And I’m at the head of the table and in the chair, and there’s different versions of myself sitting around the table, sometimes there might even be a mentor of [00:47:00] mine at the table.

And I’ll have a conversation with each one of them, because if you ask a question to somebody that you really respect, like Kelly, I don’t know that you’ve met Gavin before. I know you love the gift of fear, but after reading the book, if you were to pretend that Gavin was sitting across from you at a table and you asked him a question.

In a lot of cases, probably 80 percent of the time, you can get pretty close to the answer that he’s going to give you to a question that you would pose. So right there, you could just imagine you’re at a boardroom table having a conversation with your most courageous self. With your most empathetic self, with mentors of yours, and immediately you have access to all this other information.

One of the questions that I like to give myself, or ask myself is, if a loved one of mine was facing this situation, and I was, if [00:48:00] I was, what advice would I give them basically? And now, can I take my own advice? Because so often, I know if somebody was facing the circumstance that I’m in right now, I know what advice I would give to them. Why can’t I just take my own advice right now? It’s so hard when you’re, when you’re trying to do it on yourself. But if you, if you…take this mental model and pretend you’re having a conversation with somebody else other than yourself. Sometimes I’ve found at least that it’s easier to take the advice to adhere to some of the things that maybe you would tell a loved one.

Tell your child, tell a family member, tell your best friend, tell a colleague. And…

Kelly: yeah, you hear all the time women in, coercive controlled relationships or abusive relationships. And if they, sometimes the final click that makes them decide to leave for the final time is, is this what I would tell my daughter? Is this what I want for my daughter? Would this really [00:49:00] be the relationship I would want for her?

And right or wrong, there’s a lot of times that is that. What advice would you give yourself in this situation or give someone that you really care about that you wouldn’t want to feel the pain that you’re feeling right now? So I think that’s excellent.

Bryan: another good one too is, is a time, a time warp. What would my, what would the 20 year olders, Self tell me today,

Kelly: right not not in reverse the future wiser self. Don’t go back

Bryan: self, what would they tell kind of the same thing. So anyways, that would be a, a strategy that I think as people are exploring their intuitions, these feelings that they’re getting gut feelings, whatever it might be, is to ask questions and ask questions that start with the five W’s and an H.

Because those are going to lead to a lot more reflection and insight than [00:50:00] questions that are finite that start with, “does this…”, “is this…”, it’s going to end with a yes or no, ask how something or what something, and, and so just by thinking about those questions and how you would pose them to different people, you’re going to gain a lot of insight that will help you explore your intuitions and determine their accuracy and relevance to the circumstances that you’re in in that moment in time.

Kelly: Oh my goodness. Yes, we could we could go on forever This is I feel I’m just getting warmed up like can we just keep recording? It’s

Bryan: Me too. Maybe, maybe you should take the Joe Rogan podcast and just go for like three or four hours.

Doug: Those drive me nuts. They’re so long.

Kelly: Oh, see, and I, you know me, I love my mic drop podcast, so I like long format because I do want to go in deeper into conversation, so I don’t mind long

Doug: I have [00:51:00] 15 minutes of drive time that I, that I can use. And so it takes me three years to get through a single page.

Kelly: Doug, you just need to take a different route, apparently, and stop driving the same 15 minute route.

Bryan: Oh, good one. Bring it full circle.

Kelly: but no, as we’re wrapping up here, getting to the end, I want to make sure we each get to leave a key takeaway from this episode for our listeners and listeners. I am going to put together, the list of books that were mentioned in this podcast because, you have three.

Big readers and we would love to pass along. Hey, these are some books that we’ve read that really made us think. And, and those, and then, Brian, is it okay if I share your medium, channel so that they can read some of your readings as well?

Bryan: Yeah. It’s really more of a public diary for myself.

Kelly: But

Bryan: told you that before, but it’s, I hope that if, if [00:52:00] people want to read it, great. I put it out there publicly to manufacture the pressure that you experience when you publish something publicly. Right? And so it makes you really think clearly and try to refine it.

So I’m, I accept that people will read it and hopefully some people can get value out of it. So please do post it.

Kelly: you go. Listeners and you can go in and read some of the things that we were pulling from our conversation today. So Doug, I’ll let you go first if you’re ready. What is. What is something that you want the listeners to go away with from this episode?

Doug: don’t let intuition or the concept of intuition freak you out. Take ownership of it and make an active choice to invest in development of it.

Kelly: How about you, Brian? What’s, what’s one thing that you would want listeners, and I know you have tons of things. I’m asking a lot of you and Doug to

Bryan: You know what?

Kelly: pick one.

Bryan: If it’s okay, I’m going to. It all connects. It all connects. But [00:53:00] I think something that we didn’t really get to, which is that there are people out there doing some great work, whether it’s you with training, there’s people that I think that I brought up parenting as an analogy multiple times because I think Everything that we’re talking about is relevant to us as adults, to women that you train when they’re walking to their car in a parking lot.

But I think we really need to teach our children some of these skills. We need to teach them what intuition is. We need to teach them decision making skills and conflict resolution skills. Because if they don’t, this…evolution of where we came from. People are going to resort back to that stuff.

They’re going to resort to violence when they don’t have some of these basic skills and understanding. So what we’re talking about here. [00:54:00] I would ask and, and encourage people to try to figure out how they can get it to children, how they can support people that are already trying to support children and giving better outlets for children.

And, and there’s. , I have friends of mine that are doing some of this stuff. I just met a guy, probably six weeks ago, who’s, putting on a camp for really talented baseball players that are not in necessarily the best neighborhoods,  on, in America, and trying to set them up to be able to get scholarships and take advantage of all the things that people that come from more affluent areas have access to, and so anyways, in everyone’s community out there, there are people already doing that, already educating children, [00:55:00] and, and so whether you’re a parent and you can do it with your kids and educate them about neuroscience a little bit and how, how 98 percent of what Your brain processes is all unconscious, subconscious, and just planting some of these seeds because they are the ones that need it now more than ever.

They didn’t have the benefit of, I mean, I, I don’t know, I’m 45, I don’t know about you guys, but, I, I grew up without any cell phone. I grew up without all the information bombarding me. So, so that’s what I would not just say as a takeaway, but as a call to action for anyone listening to this, is learn more about it, read the books that we’re talking about, and, and give it to children somehow, however they can do it, whether they do it themselves, or they do it through other people who are doing it.

Kelly: [00:56:00] Right, right. No, that’s, that’s all great. And it’s actually, we’ve had, Dean Alana Stott on our podcast talking about the importance of having conversations and the role parents play in preventing human trafficking.

Bryan: Mm hmm.

Kelly: it’s just having conversations and cyber online safety and all that. Which yes, I was like, Oh, let’s go on that conversation.

Okay. Kelly. And trying to wrap it up here. I think for me, part of the initial conversation that you and I, you and I had when we first met was around that. Don’t be afraid to admit that you don’t know before starting a journey, similar to the gym analogy. Sometimes people think they have to get into shape before they go start going to the gym to get in shape.

Right. I think we have to go on a diet before we meet a nutritionist. Don’t let that stop you. You don’t have to, you can start from scratch. Zero personal safety skills that are conscious, [00:57:00] right? And then start the journey, start learning because it’s the path. It’s about continual learning and that there’s no finish line.

There’s no…Hey, once you get to a black belt, Hey, once you get, your doctorate, you’re done learning. In fact, I feel like the more people are open to learning, the more that they are hungry to continue learning. And so that’s my takeaway for, for our listeners today is don’t worry about.

What you do or don’t know just start just start thinking about your personal safety and It’s a journey. So thank you so much Brian for taking time during your travels Checking in from your hotel room to record this podcast episode Greatly greatly appreciate it. Thank you For sharing your wisdom with our listeners in this Great conversation.

And Doug, as always, thank you for being my partner in crime in honor show and, and bringing in your two cents as well. So [00:58:00] listeners, thank you. We wouldn’t be here without you. And remember to support our sponsors or supporting our shows by supporting our unafraid.