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Episode #24 Transcript - Own Your Safety Mindset with Seb Lavoie

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Kelly: Hello and welcome to Thrive Unafraid. Today we have the pleasure of having Seb Lavoie on our show. Seb, thank you for joining us. He is a performance coach, guest and motivational speaker, security expert, and dad of four. That’s all he gave me for his intro. But then, and also he gave me, he has spent a lifetime living and teaching situational awareness.

He has over 40 years of martial arts experience. 23 years of combined service between the army and police, which included 16 years in a tactical operation, seven as a team leader. And interestingly enough, which we might get into a little bit, a PTSD, OSI researcher and advocate. And I’m sure you could probably explain what the OSI piece means.

And he is. I don’t know where we’re at now, but just a few weeks shy from finishing a master’s degree in international security, global counter tour, terrorism, not tourism, global [00:01:00] counter terrorism. And he says that he can provide input on anything within the realm of situational awareness and survivability.

And Seb, we’re going to put you to the test on this episode. Then we’re going to ask you those tough questions. So welcome a little background for our listeners. Seven. I actually met. As we were both guests on the collective and it was a great discussion and at one point towards the end of that show, we were talking about PTSD, if I remember right, and just some of the trauma triggers that come with experiencing.

Trauma threats in a more of a military or law enforcement environment. And I spoke up and said, not to, to say that it’s not the same or it’s not as bad or it’s good. It’s just different. But I feel women have PTSD and trauma from the stuff they go through and the micro threats they face to their safety.

And you spoke [00:02:00] up right away and you were like, yes, and, and delved a little bit into your background, which I think would be really fascinating to get into. Today on this episode, which includes, owning that safety mindset and having a clear understanding of the limitations Associated with self defense training, which I love that’s such a hot Topic and so important for people to just continually hear over and over again that it’s not that’s it’s not a one size fits all and in a true situation Things are very dynamic, and this was really interesting.

You wanted to talk about how to differentiate between investing in our safety and over investing in the process. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Seb, and, if there’s anything else you want to tell us about your short intro, our listeners.

Seb: I didn’t want that intro to be, to be that long anyways, but, I, I feel like [00:03:00] I can just leave now.

Kelly: There you go. And there you have it folks.

Seb: Yeah, no, nothing else. It’s pretty much it in a nutshell. It’s kind of multidimensional and there’s a lot of layers that we can, we can get into, but I’m in for it.

Doug: Cool.

Kelly: Well, with that safety mindset, I thought one thing that you shared, in an email when we were first coordinating, getting this, getting you on the Thrive Unafraid show is you shared that you, you grew up in a situation where you from at a very young age had to have that safety mindset. And I’d love for you to share whatever you’re comfortable with, with our listeners.

Seb: So starting just like that, right in the fire.

Kelly: Just going to go right into it now. There’s no tiptoeing here.

Seb: That’s good. yeah, like I had a bit of a trial by fire when it comes to safety, security and, and, and navigating life and that started, in the womb, so to speak. So I’ll [00:04:00] spare you that one. But, what’s important to understand is that violence and the threats of were omnipresent when I was, even in the womb and as a result of , sort of, other circumstances later in life, I ended up having to take a key role in ensuring, sort of the, the safety and protection of, my mom, my sisters.

And it was mostly women. My mom was a single mom. She was a 15 year old when she had me. By the time I was five, she was 20, really. And then by the time my two sisters were born, she was 22 and there was three of us. But. my sisters lived with their dad who, eventually would be sort of convicted of assault on them and sexual in nature.

And, my mom was what you might expect, the person that stepped in [00:05:00] to try to protect everybody. But unfortunately she, she kind of found herself on the wrong end of it, whereas she sustained the wrath, so to speak, of that man. as a result of having come out with the information and having proceeded through the court system and having them charged and all these other things.

And so at the time I was about nine, 10 years old, I’m losing track of time. There was so much happening in that, in that. And sometimes mom used to make fun of me that I got my times wrong. But , anyways, let’s call it 11 kind of deal where I was, I was trained by a family friend to essentially use a shotgun to protect, my family and, and to sleep in front of their doors and to create some physical barriers in relation to the place that we stayed at to have surveillance sort of, routines and that kind of stuff.

So from a very young age, I started having that. planted in the back of my mind as a seed. And I was [00:06:00] already a very sort of thoughtful and, and, and protective boy, just having been a mama’s boy, so to speak, right. All those years and, and having sisters. And so, yeah, that’s essentially it.

That’s where it kind of started for me. And by the time I was 12, 13, I was teaching women’s self defense in high school, even though I didn’t do anything else in high school. I, I couldn’t, I couldn’t stay around. I was, I was, I was lost. And, but there, there was one thing that was consistent and that was my application of, of some of the, some of the skills, knowledge and abilities I had in the context of, of preventing violence towards women.

So, and it continues through, it continued throughout my service, of course, and post service as well. So it’s been, it’s been a lifelong journey and something I’m really invested in.

Doug: So in those early days, Seb, when you were trying to figure all this out, your skill set basically was street developed, right? And, and taught by friends and families. When did you start investing in your own, professional [00:07:00] development in order to be able to, build on, on that background, but also to ultimately set yourself up for teaching others?

Seb: Yeah, my very first sort of, my very first diving, deep into the world of protection of self protection or protection of collective and the mechanisms that are involved in that was doing a close protection course when I was 17 years old. So I was 17 years old and I was soon to be 18 and, and that was sort of, one of the, pre prerequisite to, to.

To graduate from the school and I took a close protection course. So we’re talking bodyguarding. We’re talking advanced package. We’re talking like a solid close protection course to the point where. 20 years later in my policing career, when I was formally trained in all those things, the course was very similar to the course I had taken when I was 17, so I was able to sort of, bridge the gap very [00:08:00] easy, but also to see that the course I had taken when I was 17 was actually extremely beneficial and, and it had helped me massively in creating the person that became, so I started there.

Did the Close Protection course, was the youngest graduate at the time to, to ever graduate from that program. I started working in close protection. So I started being a, a, a BG and, and, and eventually I would become a team leader and all of this before my military career. And then, so after I joined the military, I went the military route.

So I had a, a, a another angle, so to speak, to the same sort of. Protection slash safety, landscape. And I spent three years in the military now, granted, this was. prior to 9 11. So I didn’t do anything, that was, I didn’t do anything that was combat related or anything like that aside from the training piece.

And so I really didn’t do anything in my military career other than polishing my boots extremely [00:09:00] well. But I did learn. Yeah, exactly. Totally. But I did learn quite a bit about valuable skills that I would use in my policing career. Especially when I entered in a tactical space, I was able to bridge the gap and break those skills that maybe didn’t make sense because I didn’t, the wheels didn’t hit the pavement at the time, but they sure did, later in life.

And I, so I was able to leverage some of that past training as well. And then of course, in the course of my, Of my duties at 20 years as a law enforcement officer. I mean, I was trained consistently, in a variety of different things. So, I mean, we can launch into a million things, but, all of it serves the bigger purpose or all of it with the end goal in mind to have a desirable outcome in the context of use of force or violence.

Doug: What, what made you step in to take that very first course?

Kelly: The clothes protection course, Doug?

Seb: Yeah. I actually, [00:10:00] , that’s kind of a lifelong exploration of mine, where this, all of this came from. And as far as mom was concerned, she could go back, as far as when I was three and she’s like, already you were, walking around like a commando with your little radio and you had a little headband on and you were talking to your friends and you were setting up ambushes.

And she’s like, I don’t even know where you got all this from. So, so frankly, I have no idea where it all came from, but certainly having, a mom that yet didn’t have any money yet didn’t have any of the things, any of the luxuries that, that, other kids had, but man, she was there, she was, she was present, she was loving, she was, speaking to me like I was an adult all the time and, and, and letting me have it and giving me, coping mechanisms and giving me mechanisms that would help me be you.

Not need her faster, and I know that’s a scary prospect for some parents, they want to be the [00:11:00] ones but she, I think she’d understood that it was critical for her to pass on as many valuable lessons as she could so that I could be self sustained as early as I could, and that’s precisely what 16 years old, so

Kelly: That was one question that I had when we were talking, thinking about 9 to 11, that you were Being taught those things, how to use a shotgun, how to be aware, ways to do surveillance basically. And I, and I hear so often from parents, how do I talk to my kids about personal safety without scaring them?

And I feel like you, there was no tiptoeing around sugarcoating the information you got. It was. This is important and you were talking about your mom giving you skills and, and lessons. Do you remember, or can you recall, was it scary to learn that or were you, did it make you feel more confident like I can protect my family?

I can protect myself.

Seb: Mhm.

Kelly: And I [00:12:00] don’t know if there’s a way you can touch on that to parents or listeners who are parents who are worried about, Oh, I don’t want to talk to him about this. It might give them nightmares. And it’s like, But this is life skills that they need.

Seb: Mhm. Yeah, there is a fine balance there and I think I’ll address that right away because I made the mistake when I, when I was on the teams and, and the girls were very young, my girls are now 17 and 15, but at the time they were really, really young and I always had a very open. communication style with them.

And I really didn’t share your sugar coat, anything with respect to what was going on in the world. So I’d have him sit in my car, in my truck, in my work truck at home, at home right in front, just to say good night. And they would hear a call come in, a tone alert or something. And they would hear the circumstances.

It was a stabbing, it was this, it was that, whatever the case may be. And then I would come back from the call later and it would ask like, how was it resolved? How was it?  what happened and all of those things and I never [00:13:00] felt the need to sugarcoat outcomes or that kind of stuff. And I think to a certain extent I should have in certain at certain times.

And it’s important to understand that they don’t process information the way we do. And sometimes. increasing. It’s good to have open communication, but if it increases anxiety, it can create issues. And it did create issues in my girls. Both of them had some anxiety in relation to the events that were going on in the world.

And so there is a fine line there, because if I look objectively And introspectively for myself, what I was doing is providing them more than they needed, so, so, so it’s not on them. It’s not on the other person. It’s not on, I didn’t know because they don’t come with a manual or whatever.

No, this was on me. I overshared with my kids in relation to some of the things that I was going to and some of the calls I was dealing with and some of the situations that were essentially happening around them. [00:14:00] , and, and created, a fair bit of anxiety, which we had to address over the course of the years, right?

And now they’re 17 and 15, they’re at a point in their life where they consequential thinking is starting to make sense to them. Their brain development is at, neuroscientifically where it needs to be so that he can process all the information I was assuming on. But the opposite is also extremely destructive.

So if you’re sheltering. sheltering them against everything and not having the conversations and not talking and not doing this, the first time that they will be exposed to this will be a real shock. And that shock creates issues as well. And so I think at the end of the day, just like almost anything else in life, the balance is somewhere in the middle.

And have it having these genuine conversation relations, safety oriented conversations, but also making it play. So when I was teaching him, for example,  what we would do if some bad guy came into McDonald’s or whatever we would play and then we [00:15:00] would play rehearse that.

Kelly: Mm hmm.

Seb: And we would just say, okay, you guys go hide and don’t let me find you.

And, so they had no idea. There was no real association between the two, but , if I continue in the same vein, I took him on hikes and we were talking about grizzlies or cougars, and we had a little drill where I would call a direction and then they would line up behind me. And then my girlfriend was taking tail end, right?

So we would have me at the front, the two kids or the three kids in between, and then my girlfriend at the back. And so what we would do is as we’re negotiating a hike, so we’re walking around in nature or whatever, I would call a direction randomly and then they would line up behind me. In essentially, I don’t know if that’s going to make any sense, but like, say if I pointed right, they would all turn to the right.

So if you were the grizzly or the cougar looking at us, you would see one line, one person. You wouldn’t see four people, so we would kind of, anyway, so we implemented those games in our, [00:16:00] in our hiking, and, and we, and that created no anxiety whatsoever, but what it did create is pathways and things that they are able to do if I call it out and it doesn’t matter if it’s real or not now it’s been rehearsed, they’ve done it a bunch of times, they know how it works and, and, and we have, a safety mechanism in place.

Kelly: Right.

Seb: So.

Doug: Long before you learned what situational awareness was, you were having to practice it at home. How did you develop that skill set? Like you, you didn’t have the language of it. You didn’t have the grammar of it, so to speak. So can you talk about that process?

Seb: Sure. I, I, I guess I should, I should perhaps initiate this with, I was very intuitive, right? I was a very intuitive kid. And I think that can make a difference. If somebody is completely not intuitive, there might be some challenges there in, in, in changing that, that piece. But at least I had that I had the piece with the awareness.

Now, one of the [00:17:00] things I kind of left out is I didn’t leave it out on purpose, but it just so happened. To have been left out is mom was at the time with a subject that was a former FLQ member. And you guys probably won’t know what that is. But back in the seventies in Quebec. So just to give you a very brief geographical lesson here on the Canadian landscape on the East Coast.

There is a province called Quebec. That province is mainly French Canadians. around the country, everywhere else is Anglophones, right? Primarily, there’s French people everywhere, but really the bulk of them is in Quebec. And that’s where I was, that’s where I was, that’s where I grew up, that’s where I was born, my first language.

But, at the time, there was political, a big political shift to try to get Quebec to be independent. And there was abductions and, and, and, and murders and all kinds of stuff that that led to , martial law, [00:18:00] , in the, in the, in the province. And one of those people that was a strong militant reformed was my mom’s boyfriend who just so happened to be, a weapons handler and a bomb maker and all this stuff back in the days of the FLQ.

He was now, of course, rehabilitated. He was speaking freaking five languages, just a very intellectually minded person. But also he had another side to him, which was the capacity for violence and the ability to use it, and, and, and so for him, when this became a matter of. It needed to happen.

He basically had the conversation with me. I’m never here. This is your mom, your family. This is your job when I’m not around. And so we’re going to have to, we’re going to have to teach you how to do this and how to do this as safely as possible, but ultimately you’re going to need courage.

And he had the courage conversation with me and he had all these other conversations. So the answer is no. To answer [00:19:00] earlier point, I wasn’t. I wasn’t, necessarily, I saw it as a challenge and I saw it at something that somehow was my responsibility as the, as the, as the son. And so that’s sort of how this unfolded.

Kelly: Really, I mean that touches on your point. You have to own The safety mindset, you have to have that in your head and, and look at it as a positive really is, it’s not supposed to be a fear based. It’s supposed to be, this is a good thing that I’m learning these skills that I am, that I am okay with understanding some of these concepts and knowing that if push comes to shove. I will protect and I will take care of those I care about and love. And yes, that’s typically associated with the sons or the males in the family. But I like to always remind women, typically you’re with your kids [00:20:00] more. So you need to have that protector mindset when you’re with your kids because you’re.

Spouse significant other isn’t always going to be there. So what are you going to do in that moment? So which I think might be a good segway if Doug doesn’t have anything else at this time But is having that clear understanding of the limitations Associated with self defense. So I’d love to hear your thoughts on that

Seb: Yeah. If we’re, if we’re talking about, like physical self defense, I’m going to take some courses to learn to. use violence in a calculated way in a controlled fashion if in the event that it’s required, it’s, it’s, it’s a very interesting conversation to have because there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of realities associated with a conversation that people do not want to hear, but unfortunately, it’s, it is what it is.

And so my thoughts on that was always that we [00:21:00] spent way too much time training people that would not be training regularly. That will not have the level of stress inoculation needed to weaponize the training that they receive. It’s going to add to their bank of options, which can lead into Hick’s law.

Because if you have all of these. all of this knowledge, but really no real way to weaponize it. Now you have all these options, but you don’t know where to go. So you stall, right? And so it can create some stalls. It can do a variety of different things. Now, don’t get me wrong. You can teach a self defense move to somebody, send them out in the wild, and they ended up being assaulted by some loser who gets the technique.

works because that guy was, or that girl was not the person that you needed to worry about in the first place. You probably didn’t need training, to do any of that, but to rely upon one’s training and take it out of context and go local. Okay. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m taking, [00:22:00] , women’s self defense classes once every six months.

And I do not hit the mats. I do not spar. I do not. sustain sort of put myself into a combative adversity. I do not have to think on my feet as far as retaliating violence. I do not have to do any of those things. There is no stress inoculation piece. And so when hormones get injected in this and I get.

super fired up with a 200 plus heart rate or 180. All of those skills are going to be essentially negated, not completely, but they will be mostly negated. And so I think that for the very small infinitesimal , possibility of you using a physical technique, you should have been concentrating on learning how to harden the target together, how, how to use your essay and your situational awareness to, to control the parameters around, That navigation that we call life and going around, but also to have protection [00:23:00] mechanisms in place.

And that includes everything. Now, people do not like that. This is kind of like the airplane lecture, right? When you’re in a plane and people are paying attention to the flight attendant, and all of a sudden they start talking about the possibility of this thing going down. Everybody’s gone. You look around like nobody’s paying attention.

Nobody listens because if they don’t listen, then obviously the plane isn’t going to crash. Right. But I think that’s a trap that we fall into as humans is trying to not look at the things. And if we don’t look at them, they necessarily won’t happen or won’t look back at us. And that’s obviously not the right mindset to have, right?

It’s more, it’s more to make it a part of your routine, to make it something that’s seamless, to make it something that’s natural to you. That becomes. not very labor intensive, and yes, learning and all this stuff can be a little bit labor intensive, but labor of love, really, I mean, this is, self protection, it’s protection of the collective, it’s protection of the [00:24:00] people you love, and it follows you everywhere and permeates absolutely every aspect of your life, and so, for me, it’s all about focusing the same skill set on teaching, certain things, like why, why are you walking down this to the basement to bring your garbage up at 11 o’clock at night because you can’t stand the fact that the bag is in the kitchen.

Right? So I get it, but there’s priorities of life here. I get the fact that that bag, if there’s fish in it, it’s a different story. Maybe you call your friends and you’re going down. But if there isn’t, then what is it? So if you’re telling me that having a clean kitchen is more important than your physical safety, you have it inverted.

Right? You have your priorities of life inverted, and that’s a critical piece we have to look at. Right.

Doug: So can you, when I, as I listen to you talking about that, I’m thinking about finding that balance because, because you’re talking about mind skills, right? Brain skills more than you’re talking about physical skills. You’re talking about asking [00:25:00] yourself questions and being in that habit, that pattern of, of observing your world around you.

One of the biggest challenges we hear from, folks that we engage with or that Kelly teaches is maintaining that balance between, Paranoia or fear and awareness and how do you guide people through that kind of decision process so that basically they’re, they’re, they’re more awake and, and less fearful instead of more feel fearful.

Seb: I think having that conversation about the lack, the lack of fear doesn’t make you less of a victim is a, is a good starting point, right? The lack of fear or the fear doesn’t, doesn’t change anything. So this is an emotion. And just like I do with any emotion, it’s an acknowledgement that they exist. And then the problem itself is a mathematical equation.

Like I do not over invest emotionally in this. It’s, it’s like. If I do X, Y, and Z, or if I, [00:26:00] , this is an outcome that I may be expecting, if dealing with violence, I don’t see it as this big, Reaper trying to come take me and all this stuff. It’s not personal. I just, I, I don’t make it personal.

So what I do with my clients all the time is we have that conversation. What we are talking about here is safety processes or processes that are going to make you, that are going to inherently make you safer, right? And, and, and, and the rest of it is. If you don’t do it, it’s necessarily not going to change everything.

If you do do it, it’s necessarily not going to change everything, but it optimizes your chances of success in, in, in, in, and increasing your survivability, right? So I think one of the problems that we have, and this permeates, behaviors, I would say quite seriously, especially nowadays, is that, It’s almost like people were taught to repress feelings for so long that now it’s like, let him [00:27:00] all loose and let him run the show and it’s a whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not, there has to be a certain amount of stoicism in there.

And that’s not to say that there’s an invalidation of feeling, but it’s like knowledge of the feeling move on. What do I need to do to keep myself safe, to keep my family safe? What are some of the precautions I can take when I exit my apartment building with the creep next door, when I’m in the underground parking lot, when I approach my car to make sure that I didn’t interrupt anybody breaking into it, all of those things, how can we just make some small adjustment to make that work?

Doug: I want to come back to a comment you just made. You talked about increases survivability. I want to connect it to the airplane lecture that we get right. And, at one level, as you noted, people want to disconnect from the lecture because they don’t want to think about the bad thing happening and therefore, quote, make it happen.

But the statistics show that those folks who actually turn around and look for the nearest exit actually have an increased [00:28:00] incidence of survivability when the bad thing happens. And obviously there’s no connection to them looking around for the exits and the bad thing happening, right? And so it would seem counter to self interest to not look around and at least acknowledge that.

And so what you’re talking about, I think, connecting that back to building these habits is that it does increase survivability without increasing fear when you begin to make these things a habit. And you just have to break through a little bit of that mindset issue that people want to believe about.

That the world’s a good and happy place with rainbows, puppies, and pink sunglasses.

Seb: Yeah, and to a certain extent, there are rainbows and puppies and sunglasses, but the alternative of adopting that mindset as a way of life is, would be catastrophic, right? So it’s important to acknowledge that this is the case. And I mean, I have these conversations with people all the [00:29:00] time when they’re in the law enforcement world, for example, because.

They’re dealing now 100 percent of the time with 1 percent of the population, which leads them down the route of, professionally induced cynicism and nihilism at times, even on account of, I’m dealing with 100 percent and therefore 100 percent of people are. on the wrong end of this operation.

And really, it’s a very small margin of the population that’s looking at victimizing other people, right? And we, and we know that realistically. And so it becomes more, and those are, again, this is another angle that we can hit with our, with my clients anyway, that I do with my clients is what do you control?

Your three, your three spheres of influence. You have your direct sphere of influence, you have the things you have some influence over. So I invest some energy in it, and then you have the things you have zero control over. But one thing that you seem to have an , a good, control over all along is you and you can make the [00:30:00] decision and you can learn things and you and you could be as exploratory as you want in that, in that, in that, in any endeavor, but specifically as it pertains to safety and what people need to recognize is that when you have those Those pieces of the puzzle put in place and that, that you are safety minded and you’re a harder target than most people.

It also releases a hold that it has on your central nervous system as far as like, the fear that’s associated with whatever situation is going on in the world. Because ultimately that’s what happens. People look around and they see other people being victimized in certain ways. And it. It increases anxiety, it increases fear in relation to the world at large.

And so I think it’s important to understand, just like if you were public speaking all the time, and now you have a public speaking engagement, the chances of you being anxious to the point where it will be debilitating are very low. But if you’re not doing it, you’re like,  what, I just don’t like to public speak, I don’t want to [00:31:00] public speak.

And eventually you have to public speak. Now you’re, you’re in, you’re in for a treat, right? It’s a completely different. Ball game.

Doug: Self reinforcing narrative.

Seb: Yeah, exactly. essentially. Mm-Hmm.

Kelly: Well, and one thing I always hear too is, we talk about the fear is people have a lot of fear, or, and so then they don’t want to, they want to do the head in the sand thing, or I was recently on a trip with a girlfriend and I would say that I’m a little bit more advanced in my situational awareness skills than she is, and it became very apparent as we were traveling in this foreign country and she just kept saying every time I would do something, Or, be a certain way, and I would say, I’m uncomfortable right now with, unless I’m doing the things that I know increase my safety, make me a harder target, so on and so forth, but it was, it was a Interesting for her to say, Oh, wait, you’re obviously at a higher level of awareness and you’re feeling, [00:32:00] I don’t want to say anxious, but you’re just at a heightened alert because it was a new baseline.

I’m not quite comfortable in the environment. So I’m just. you can talk about the color codes, but I am trying to keep it layman’s terms, I’m just at a heightened awareness level. So for her, she was like, I wasn’t thinking about that at all. I was completely oblivious. So I felt like you were more anxious or nervous than I was.

And you’re the one who’s supposed to know all these things better than I do. And I said, that’s because I’m aware of, Hey, this is a new environment. So I need to be heightened. It’s not that I’m. I’m scared, or I’m, I’m just, I’m going to make sure that I’m not on my phone. I’m going to make sure I’m looking around.

I’m going to make sure that I’m sitting facing the door of whatever facility or restaurant or shop that we’re at. I’m going to keep my back to the wall as we’re standing in line to get this item, whatever it may be. And so it’s, it’s interesting to me because some people assess that people like yourself or Doug or myself who [00:33:00] think about this more often or are more conscious of it, that we have no fear.

That we don’t have any anxiety, that we never feel uncomfortable. And it’s, I always think that’s just an interesting juxtaposition versus people who are completely oblivious and unaware and are doing the puppies and rainbows and pink sunglasses thing. So I think it’s interesting to tell people, it’s not that we don’t have fear.

It’s not that we don’t have things that concern us, but we just deal with it. We kind of feel the feels and deal with it. We don’t shy away from the emotion or go too into the emotion. Pendulum swing.

Seb: Yeah, it’s more, ignorance is bliss to a certain extent. It’s only bliss until you become a victim. And now you’re like, how did this happen? And I missed a hundred previous steps, right? So that little bit of extra investment in your safety, that perhaps brings a measure of alertness of, of, or, or hyper vigilance for a time or, depending on what’s going on is, is better than the shock that you’re about to have when [00:34:00] you.

When something catastrophic happens and you missed the hundreds, little telltale sign that were coming right before, and, and I, and I think that’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s an oversimplification and, and, and, and for me, I would say that even when I travel and if I’m in a, a nefarious neighborhood, or if I’m in a, an area that’s sketchy or whatever the case may be, my stress level isn’t, up there, there’s a little bit of a hyper vigilance.

Yes. We might expect that Maybe if a situation makes me truly uncomfortable, it might be a little bit of fear that says hey Let’s get the hell out of here. This place is necessarily not healthy for us all of this good stuff, but there isn’t a single day that I’m walking around, looking around paranoia, like it’s all a part of, of how I do business anyway.

So it just so happened to be that when I do sit down, I generally know where the exit routes are. when I [00:35:00] approach my car, I generally know nobody else is in it, but I don’t have It’s not a, such an invested process that I, I raise my stress level, substantially and that temporary elevation of hyper alertness for you in the context of being in a foreign country is a lifesaver for her.

So you’re, you’re actually, really, and my friends say that to me all the time when we’re traveling, it’s like, Seb, you’re keeping us safe. We’re doing, we’re doing the partying,

Kelly: Well, it is funny because she was very much like, yeah, Mike, I’ll send you the bill for the close protection service that I offered during our vacation. Don’t worry about

Doug: That’s like, don’t, don’t make my life harder, guys. At least you’re, you’re in the, one of my favorite definitions of courage and a whole bunch of different people have given variance on it, but is, is that courage is being afraid and doing the thing anyway. Right? So, courage is not the absence of fear, it’s knowing that you’re going to go do this thing that’s going to be a little bit scary and doing it anyway, and that may mean different things to different people.

[00:36:00] Stepping out into a foreign country or going off property when you’re in that foreign country and going into a market or whatever you happen to be doing. And, and it’s not being foolhardy, it’s, it’s recognizing that, that fear has roots in reality, but not, not letting the fear own you or control you.

Seb: Precisely. And I think what’s really important as part of that process is to have actual data. I think it’s important, when you’re going somewhere, when you’re going to a location, what are some of the, what are some of the critical issues that tourists, tourists or locals are faced with? What is the health and water and food supply situation?

What is the, all of those things, having a general understanding, even, even for, for. Travel selection, really, let’s call a spade a spade. There’s a lot of spots right now in the world that I would absolutely love to see, and I am absolutely not going Because, because, because of the, of, of the way the situation has, sort of devolved, but I think having a process [00:37:00] is, is, is super important because otherwise what ends up happening is you may travel somewhere and bring your glasses, your Canadian glasses, or your American glasses with you.

And now you’re going to be looking at the world through your. Lens in a completely different world that doesn’t obey your rules, right? So now you’re setting yourself up. This is actually worse. It’s almost like you’re getting a self sense of confidence in relation to What  you bring to the table and what you’re capable of doing and and seeing coming And now you’re transposing it in a completely different context that you may or may not know anything about and so that’s why it’s important to kind of take a bit of the emotions out of that and see what is the Let’s get a clear view of what the lens, what kind of lens I should be using to look at the world when I go to this part of the world and some of the things that I take for granted within the context of my country or anywhere else might not work there or might not be preferable or might lead [00:38:00] to issues, so there is a piece, the preparedness piece starts obviously long before the trip starts, but having the ability to do that and and preemptively address Your own lens and your own biases is going to be critical in that.

But all I can tell you is this, when you travel with a bunch of people that do that naturally, it makes traveling stress free, right? Because if I travel with three or four people and, and I’m the only one that’s safety conscious, then I’m doing the work for everybody. Right. Cause I know that I want to keep the group out of harm’s way.

And I want to keep the group. in a good place and, and, and enjoying a good trip. But if, but if you have a few people that are operating like you, it makes everything so seamless, right?

Kelly: I want to say something, but I don’t like that. We’re just going to travel together,

Seb: All of us

Kelly: Things are easier.

Seb: Your security

Kelly: Then we’ll be like, okay, you have to apply. If you’re non safety related or [00:39:00] focused, you have to apply to travel with us.

Seb: We’ll have a panel.

Kelly: can only take so many there’s, there’s limits.

Seb: You’ll have a panel interview and.

Doug: Thank you travel partners wisely. 

Kelly: Yes, exactly. Well, I guess, is that kind of a good segue then into that differentiating between investing in our safety and over. Investing in the process. I mean, that to me was like, well, I want to know more about that. So can you kind of expand?

Seb: Yeah, it, my, I think, and it could be semantics. I mean, it really has to do with emotional investment. Right. And again, again, it’s when I. When I look at a situation, I’ll give you an example. That’s very unusual for people. People, people have a hard time connecting with that, but I like to use it because I used to do it because it works.

So for me, in the context of law enforcement, for example, we know that every time you put your uniform on, every time you do anything, you’re where you’re waving a flag. That flag is completely the, the, the, the fundamental [00:40:00] things that you are, are completely irrelevant to you flying that flag as far as some people are concerned.

And so if somebody wants to be at war with law enforcement, it really doesn’t matter how much community service you’re doing, how much community, because nothing that you do is relevant. It doesn’t matter because you are the enemy, right? And one of the, one of the, the key issues that arises in policing often with young Cops or cops that have been around for too long or anything in between is to take these things personally.

It’s like, this is this person, try to hurt me or try to hurt somebody. And this is personal. Now you just made this personal. I never did that. No, it’s not personal. That person doesn’t know anything about me. I’m a cop. I have a uniform. I obey by certain rules. I work for the government. I enforce the laws.

[00:41:00] That’s it. So it’s kind of the same. If you don’t see yourself on the wrong end of violence as a personal thing, you get, the tendency is to lessen the amount of paranoia that you are doing. It’s not like people are actively seeking you. You’re not Jason Bourne. But also it doesn’t make you impervious to violence.

It doesn’t make you that they won’t target you. And so that’s an important distinction. And then you can, you can go, okay, by way of process, I’m taking something that has a point. To 1 percent chance of occurring and I’m bringing it down to 0. 01 and I using math because , there’s, excuse me, there’s nothing that’s less emotional than math as far as I’m concerned, but, but I think, and so treading that line or, and, and, and having the ability to recognize that none of this is personal, this is a process that I’m implemented, you start, [00:42:00] taking that emotional overinvestment out of it, whereas if you’re emotionally overinvested in this and you’re trying to build this protection or this wall of protection around you and you see everybody outside of it as the person that has the potential to come in and take everything away from you, you’re dealing with a very different stress level here.

Kelly: Right. And it’s, and it’s funny because now I’m like, okay, so this might be pushing back on you,

Seb: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly: Bring it on, bring it on. You talk about taking out the emotion. It’s not personal, it’s. you use the example of, of law enforcement and they’re seeing a uniform.

They’re not seeing you as a human, they’re seeing a uniform. Would my, my opinion right now, or my initial thought was. It’s different for women because it’s almost always personal against women since we typically, again, talking statistics, depending on which studies you look at, 75 to 85 [00:43:00] percent of attacks on women come from someone we know.

So it becomes very personal. It becomes very, how dare you say no to me asking you on a date? How dare you turn me down? How dare you not go with whatever I want? , whatever the case may be. Different level, a coworker, a classmate at college or, or school younger, even, a dating prospect.

And so then it does become personal and that’s really hard to peel back the emotion. I think, and again, I’m. Projecting here. So listeners, I’m not saying this is exactly how it goes, but I think a lot of times women have a psychological stop to thinking about using violence or thinking about what is necessary in order to protect themselves, protect others that they care about, typically maybe like your mom’s situation where she had kids, how do I protect my kids too?

Is because there is a personal nature to it. There is a personal relationship and there’s to me. [00:44:00] I always, I use the example of if a stranger’s ticking me off, I have absolutely no problem being like, no, don’t want to talk to you. Nope. And walking away or doing whatever. Like, I don’t think twice about it.

I don’t care if they think I’m, whatever they want to think of me, because I’ll probably never see them again. No skin off my back. But if it’s someone that I have to go to work with tomorrow, if it’s a classmate I got to see for the rest of the semester, if it’s somebody, a friend of a friend in the friend circle, okay, well, every time I get together with this group of people, that individual is going to be there.

And so then it changes the dynamic of how people enforce boundaries, how they, how they voice. Even their boundaries because of the emotion. And I think it would, I think that’s a big thing that we need to talk about. Do you or Doug have thoughts on how do we talk about dealing with emotion when we can’t always remove emotion when it comes to threats to our safety?

Seb: for sure. And just to clarify, it’s not about [00:45:00] removing the emotions. It’s about acknowledging them and moving past. Right?

Kelly: I like.

Seb: Yeah. So it’s, I never, I never, I never, I never, I never invalidate my own emotions because they’ve saved my life at times, right? So it’s important to acknowledge them and realize, okay, there’s something here.

I need to be looking into, but I could say, I could safely say this. Anything can be made personal, right? When, when, if I want to be technical, like we can go down the law enforcement route, go back to the story I said and said, well, now this guy has selected me. And we know that cop killers are selecting.

Select individuals that are showing certain, certain character traits or certain and they may get targeted on account of, your boots are undone and your pistol is dangling on your waist and you look like you don’t have your stuff together. And I’m not suggesting that an ambush can’t happen to a police officer that has it in.

And check like, so let’s not generalize, but it does, but it does happen. And this can be made [00:46:00] personal also, right. And women in general can be made personal. We can equate women with police officers, for example. Right. So the people that hate women are going to be targeting women that you

Kelly: That’s a good point.

Seb: Yeah.

So I, Those, those are, are, are, it doesn’t change anything really, in my opinion is just, but what’s important to understand in the piece that I was. Sharing is that if these emotions are running the show. any context, it’s, it, you’re not going to optimize the response. You’re, you’re just, you’re not, so you’re, so whether or not you decide to let a little bit more of that, if there’s a personal relationship involved, all those things, that changes things slightly, right?

But it’s also important to detached and what is the right, what is the right course of action here? , and it’s really interesting because it’s not interesting. I wish we never had to have that conversation. But as far as [00:47:00] the statistics were concerned with, and you’re correct with women and the people closer to them, it’s a terrifying prospect.

Let’s call a spade a spade here. It’s a terrifying prospect. I’m a, I walk around the way I walk around and I already am safety conscious. What would this be if there were predatorial? Men that targeted, and I don’t want to make it sound like because not all men are, quite to the contrary, but those who are are often go unimpeded for a long, long time and get to sort of, Further victimize people.

So yeah, those are great conversations to, to, to have obviously, and, and things to keep in the back of your mind, but then it becomes a question of if that person is in a closer circle, how, how is this, how’s this dynamic? Why have I seen this person six times in different parties and why am I at those parties?

What actions am I taking? And, and, and it’s, it’s really [00:48:00] interesting because when you’re having those conversations, oftentimes what comes out is this is victim shaming because you should never. You should never be telling somebody, what could you have done better? But the reality is, do you want to be, do you want to be right?

Or do you want to be dead? Because those two things are not mutually exclusive. So there is, I agree with you. You should be able to do everything you want. You should be able to walk down the neighborhood streaking or in the buff and not have to worry.  What do I mean? It would be a super entertaining and a lot of fun.

But.

Kelly: On how cold it

Seb: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But, what is it that you need to do to optimize your safety in the context of understanding that a lot of people are not? Your friend,

Kelly: Well, I think, I think that’s where the, it’s a good discussion to have about taking out emotions even for women. And I feel like I [00:49:00] have a responsibility as a woman to speak up and say things kind of what you said before about taking the trash out at night, like, yeah, you should be able to take out the trash whenever you darn well feel like.

Seb: Percent.

Kelly: But if you’re truly thinking about making your safety a priority. That’s the most important, there was another situation while we were on vacation where there is a male individual who, my friend, had met this couple at the pool earlier in the day. And then later that night, we’re at the hotel lobby bar, all hanging out.

And some of the behaviors he was exhibiting was making me uncomfortable. And was it a big deal? No. But it was one of those things where I’m like,  what? I’m here having fun. It’s vacation. I don’t need to worry about things. I don’t want things to escalate any further. He’s making me uncomfortable.

Period. My priority is my safety. And so I deployed my safety word, my codeword with my friend. And I was, very simply was like, gave her the word. She knew exactly what that meant. And she’s like, oh, I’m so tired. [00:50:00] Time to go to bed. Bye. And we left and it was like, non-event. No issues. But again, you have to take out the emotions.

Oh, I don’t want to offend them if we leave early. Oh, what are they going to think if we go, don’t care. Like I didn’t want it to escalate to a situation. And yeah, no, it’s not quote unquote air quotes fair. But if that’s what your priority is, is your safety, then you should not have to apologize about it.

And you do have to temper those emotions and keep them realistic.

Doug: Well, I think that’s the key, right? Hans, hans are emotional beings, period. There’s this stereotype that women tend to err more towards the emotional side of decision making and men tend to err more towards the rational side of decision making. But I think a lot of people really misunderstand that continue anyway.

And what ends up happening is the men tend to Overlook their own emotional components in their decision making and underweight the reality [00:51:00] of them. And I think women tend to sometimes overweight the fear of making emotional decisions and underweight that they actually have some pretty good rational decision making skill sets.

And for those that can’t see us, Seb is nodding vigorously in agreement.

Seb: This, this is a mic drop moment here.

Doug: Yeah, and so.

Kelly: This is a Dougism. We call ’em Dougism’s on the show.

Doug: Folks have to recognize where they are in the continu and actually have enough self awareness to understand their specific model for decision making, including the pieces of it that are emotional and the pieces of it that are rational and calling those what they are.

And the problem is so many folks are afraid to actually look at themselves transparently and think through that process. It’s okay to have some emotional component in your decision making. You’re han. You’re going to. What you want to do is, maybe not have that be the primary decision driver. But if you didn’t have an emotional decision making process, you wouldn’t extricate yourself [00:52:00] from that situation that made you feel uncomfortable, kindly, right, with some care and concern for, for the other, other folks, and do so with graciousness.

And so there has to be that, that mix in there.

Kelly: Mm-Hmm.

Seb: Yeah, I, I, I love that. And it’s, it’s, it’s, I can’t remember what the name of the doctor is. There is a very prominent doctor that wrote. I think a hundred different books, like essentially PhD level papers on the, on, he’s a forensic psychologist and he talks about gender differences and, and, and it’s a really interesting, I’ll, I’ll find it for you and, and sort of send it your way.

But, but, one of the argents he was making is, and this is him and his team. So in his team, there’s obviously women researchers, all this stuff. It’s not just him being old school, yeah, exactly. Exactly. He’s.

Kelly: Just lay it right out there.

Seb: Because, because, then there could be cognitive bias and we wouldn’t know.

And do you think that cognitive bias doesn’t affect [00:53:00] critical analysis of academics? I got some bad news, and so.

Kelly: Are hans.

Seb: 100 percent but this guy, very, very knowledgeable, very respectful, very understanding. And he lays it out. He’s like. women are essentially built to protect their kids and through an evolutionary process, they have the ability to sense and instinctively feel danger as a result of who they have to care for.

And that, and so he also says that women on average, and this is something that you might want to look into a little bit more, but he says something that something along the lines of women experience on average, seven times the amount of. negative emotions that men would experience on the daily. Right. As a result of having those mechanisms.

Yeah. So he’s basically saying, like, look, when you’re acting and you’re, you’re, you’re in problem solving mode and your wife comes to you and she’s having something, just [00:54:00] bridging that gap, being like, Hey man, like you’re going to need to do something differently because obviously the definition of insanity is to do the same thing all over again, expecting a different outcome.

Most people on their third marriage learn something. But he was just going down that gender sort of differences route and some really interesting stuff in there. But imagine if that’s the case, that means that, say if you had, if you were, if you had three times the amount of negative emotions, like sometimes I, I, I feel deeply about my negative emotions and I have to overcome them and I have to, logically override certain things.

But if I had three, four, five times the amount. That would be really challenging. Right. And, but still it can be done to a certain extent. It may not be to the extent, somebody will go full stoic, right? Like it might not work, but you don’t need to. That’s the beauty of it. It’s like having that balanced approach to problem solving things like hans are creatures of extreme.[00:55:00] 

We do something, we do it all out. It doesn’t work. We go the complete opposite. So we never know. Where the adjustments that we’ve made have made a difference or didn’t because, we’ve just went from one end of the spectrum to the other and that’s the reason why we’re seeing such divisiveness in, in, in the world right now, in, in, in relation to, the left, the right, this political party, this religion, this, whatever, a lot of that, a lot of that is anchored in our inability to see gray,

Doug: Mm hmm.

Seb: Black and white.

Kelly: Or consider that both might be true at the same.

Seb: A hundred.

Kelly: Even if we don’t like it. Even if we don’t like it, it’s sorry, that’s the truth. Well, and we’re getting towards the end of our time here, and that went really fast. I knew we’d have a good conversation, just from the little bit when we were on the collective, but is there anything else that you wanted to make sure that we touched on before, or, shared with our [00:56:00] listeners?

And we will have links to your website and your Instagram handle as well as you were, you had shared that you did a two part podcast on domestic violence specifically. So I’ve got those links. We’ll make sure to say, share those in the show notes as well. But is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners?

Seb: No, I, I think we’ve, we, we’ve covered a bunch of very valuable, sort of material. I mean, we didn’t necessarily provide actionable items, which is something I like to do, sometimes most of the time. So we just, we’re just not having a conversation blowing. Hot air, so to speak.

But, I think understanding that having a safety oriented mindset is the fundamental piece to the safety equation, and it doesn’t take away from yes. In the beginning, it’s a little bit of work, but it doesn’t take away from your ability to enjoy life. It doesn’t take away from you, but it adds a layer of [00:57:00] safety as well.

And so, Yes, you can go completely unimpeded and really not think about any of those things or not look at your introspect enough and find out exactly where your shortcomings are and not have any stress, but that doesn’t protect you against anything. So you’re essentially walking around at the mercy of,

Somebody that wants to hurt you or somebody that wants to hurt the ones you love. And so really, the conversations around that, that mindset switch and just say, I’m going to take ownership of my safety. I’m going to do the research. I’m going to go, continue listening to these podcasts. I’m going to continue sort of expanding my knowledge base so that I can be at that point where this is no longer stressful.

It is a part of the process.

Doug: Well, let me, let me then I’m following on that and, and the desire to provide some practical tips for folks, give me or give us or our listeners two tips for two different audiences. One for the, [00:58:00] for the person who’s just starting out to figure out how to do this. What are the two things you would suggest that they start doing this week to begin to grapple with this, practically speaking.

And then for somebody who’s a little further on, what are two, two things you would recommend that they do.

Seb: I guess, I would start looking at what is my, what are my circumstances and what may I find myself into? And that could be, geographical location. It could be that you live in South Central. It could be that you’re in Scottsdale because those two things are. different, right? Like,

Doug: So a self assessment.

Seb: Yeah, exactly.

So just have a self assessment of your current landscape and some of the things that you are aware are going on in the neighborhood. And how are you addressing those things? How are you addressing those threats? And perhaps, if I live in Compton, it’s normal for me not to be out at 10 o’clock at night.

Because at 10 o’clock at night, the bars go up in the window and the gangsters are doing to shoot him up and do all this stuff in the bodies are picked up in the morning and I don’t want any part of that right [00:59:00] like this, this, this could be so having really a firm grasp on what it is that you are in and what are some of the risk factors associated with that and what are some of the key things that you can do to improve your safety in those areas.

And, now we’re at an age of information. There is ample information out there. So it’s just a matter of finding the right source. And, and, if you, if you, if you hit a source and you question that source a little bit more research, and you’re going to know immediately if there’s contention around the, their ideas, or if there is contention around their teachings, those types of things.

So just generally speaking, increasing that self awareness.

Doug: So a risk assessment with gap analysis and a mitigation plan. Is that the first thing?

Seb: Sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

Kelly: For like the next the person who’s trying to continue sharpening or is maybe on the [01:00:00] journey and wants to continue Learning and getting

Seb: Yeah. Well, I mean, if we’re gonna go to phase two, now we’re starting to talk about physical things, right? We’re starting, we’re starting to talk about like, are you, taking, are you, do, do  how to defend yourself? Can you fight? , ’cause, and, and yes, you’re gonna push back the, the, the boundaries.

So to speak through your actions. But at the end of the day, when it’s all said and done, if you were blatantly attacked right now. violently, would you have anything to offer, right? And if the answer is no, that is not a good place to be. It’s not, so, so yes, I do want to prioritize my situation awareness.

I do want to prioritize the safety mechanisms that I put in place around my sort of lifestyle. But I also, if push comes to shove. I have that knowledge base, which is me investing time into, [01:01:00] , perhaps two or three of my training sessions or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Judo or whatever, or maybe I do boxing because I love boxing or whatever it is really doesn’t matter.

I’m not a, the martial arts that you practice is better than when you don’t practice generally speaking. And, and, and, and, and it’s not just about. martial arts. It’s about mindset. It’s about adversity. It’s about fighting out of a bad situation. It’s about fighting out of bad spots. So that’s why there’s so many metaphorically applicable benefits to jujitsu, for example, because every single position you find yourself into is positions that life will put you into. And so if you start developing 17 ways to escape a side control, you just metaphorically invented 17 ways that you can escape side control when life applies it to you. It’s, this doesn’t make a lot of sense until people have actually felt that. But if you speak to anybody who’s done it, they will say exactly the same.

So there has to be a leap of faith there, but you [01:02:00] need to bring, you need to have general physical abilities, your general physical preparedness. You need to be fit enough and you need to have some ideas of what combatives. The weaponization of your combative skills in the context of a, of a, of a physical encounter would be, and if you don’t know what that is, go.

Kelly: Right well and again, I shouldn’t elongate this any longer, but I always tell women, it’s not, it’s fun. It’s fun to learn this stuff too. You don’t, it doesn’t have to be walking into a class and being terrified the whole class. Like I mean, sure there’s bad experiences, but if you get into a gym or an organization, it’s a sense of community and they’re all there trying to make each other better.

So if you look at it as this is a learning process, I’m not going to be perfect. The first time I step on the mat, I’m going to get my butt kicked at certain times because It’s just the way life is and if you’re not getting your butt kicked on a regular basis, then you’re not pushing yourself far enough out of your comfort zone.

But, it [01:03:00] can, that can be fun too. Don’t let it intimidate you. And then what was your second thing? So the next level, if they did work on their physical safety skills, but, and then is there something else that you think that they should be working on?

Seb: No, I mean, the rest of it is all depth of exploration, right? I mean, you, we, we, you and I can have a, a, a, a conversation here, but a, about neuroscience, but the conversation is gonna look a lot different if Huberman is having it with somebody else, right?

Kelly: Right, right.

Seb: So there’s, there’s depth and layers to this, and I think it’s important to understand that this safety and safety oriented behaviors are not a destination. It’s a journey and it’s a, it’s a, it’s a consistently evolving journey. And, and, and it’s important to question, if we, if we have been comfortable with the same course of action for quite some time, it’s time to revisit it. Is there things that I could be doing better? Are there things that this no longer applicable for?

Or, so now it’s, at the end of the day, it’s all about [01:04:00] two things. Self awareness and self regulation. Right. That’s all there is to it. As far as like, if we’re breaking it down to very simple self awareness, self regulation, where are you at? What is your situation like? Has anything changed? If anything’s changed, what have you changed to respond?

To whatever circumstance changes, and, and, and, and really understanding, I think that’s something that I would love to throw out at some point is having a priority of life course. we’re going to teach you where, how to use the priorities of life, which is a very strong concept in the law enforcement world in relation to decision making when it comes to use of force.

And people would sort of compute. Life differently, because as soon as you find yourself in a dilemma, all you have to do is to line up the priorities of life. And if you’re coming first, you’re doing it wrong. if you’re not, if you’re not engaging [01:05:00] in the way you should. And so this would be a great addition to, to any of those processes.

Doug: Cool.

Kelly: I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. And, for anyone, I love that you want to give actionable tips or skills. I would then encourage all of our listeners to follow you on Instagram, reach out via your website. We will post all of that, send you an email. I assess that’s a good way to connect with you as well.

So we can put all of that contact information in the notes. So that people can find you and, and reach out to you for some of that training and coaching. And , yep, you’re up in Canada, so I’m assuming you have lots of connections though. So even if someone’s not near you geographically, you probably could refer them, I would asse,

Seb: Oh, a hundred percent.

Kelly: Trust.

Seb: Yeah. And also I, now with the virtual age, I mean, we can, we can, we connect with people all around the world all the time. I just finished an international degree. That’s what we did.

Kelly: That’s awesome. That’s so awesome. Doug, is there anything you [01:06:00] want to say before we close here?

Doug: No, I think, I think Seb covered it all for us. So thank you so much.

Kelly: Thank you so much for coming on the show. This is great to get to talk to you again and see you. And I have a feeling we’ll cross paths again in the future. At least I hope so.

Seb: Absolutely.

Kelly: So to all our listeners, thank you again for listening and continuing to listen and download episode after episode. We appreciate you continuing to leave reviews, sending us guest suggestions or topic suggestions of what you want on the show, because we take that into account and we are looking to fill.

Season two with guests, so send them our way. And as always remember that it’s your life. You need to prioritize your personal safety in a way that works for you. I think Seb in this episode summed it up nicely. It’s not a destination. It’s a journey and we want you to live life on your terms and thrive unafraid.