Episode #6 Transcript - When Your Gut Raises the Alarm

Kelly: Welcome back everyone to Thrive Unafraid. I had a conversation this morning with a woman completely unrelated to personal safety, which is how most of my conversations go with the general public. And then when I found out what I do, they’re like, actually, I have a question. And she shared a story and asked me, will you please talk about this on the show? Because I need answers, I need help with. So today’s topic is gonna be focused on the story that she shared with me, and it’s along the lines of personal safety as a new parent. So her infant is now six months old now currently, but when her baby was two months old, she had a situation happen while she was leaving a big retailer. And this big box store was part of a larger mall, so it wasn’t a standalone retailer, it was part of a large mall, a very large parking lot. She was leaving this retailer and had her infant in the car seat inside the shopping cart with the bags around the car seat. Because as we know, your hands are typically full and car seats are not conducive to keeping your hands free maneuvering very easily. But as she was leaving the store, she noticed a woman was following her and she said, what’s unique about this situation is the woman had been standing outside when she walked out the doors and didn’t pay any attention to this woman. But as soon as she noticed the baby in the car seat, she said all of a sudden she was very interested in me and that’s when she started following me. And so she knew the woman was following her. So she switched sides, she changed sides of the aisle in the parking lot, and the woman also did… she shifted from coincidental to intentional.


Kelly: And so her intuition, alarm bells are starting to sound are starting to heighten her.


Doug: Orange and…


Kelly: Yes. She’s going to orange because in her mind now she’s thinking, ‘I have a baby and I have to protect my baby. I’ve had all of these shopping bags. I’m going to my vehicle…’


It’s the time of year, it’s darker so earlier so there was a lot of things going on in her mind. She had the wherewithal to think, what am I going to do with my child? What is the personal safety priority? And to her it was, I’ve gotta get my baby in the vehicle. And it was a larger SUV, so it had the hatch that opens in the back and she got to her vehicle. She had opened the hatch automatically on the key fob, so it was ready and open. Took the baby carrier with the baby in it out of the cart and placed it in the back of her SUV. And as she was reaching up to shut the hatch, she made eye contact with the woman who was following her. And she, so that was the first time that she had really acknowledged to the woman following her, I see you and I, I’m in, I’m in this to win it… All non-verbals. And she said as soon as she made eye contact with that woman, the woman kind of froze about-faced, turned around and walked. but it had shook her as a new mom. She was really just adrenalized and stressed out about that situation, rightfully so.


So she said, what I then did was got the baby out of the back, loaded the bags of items into the back of the walked with my baby and the cart, put it in the cart corral, you know, and then got in the the baby secured into the base of the car seat in the back of the vehicle, got in and left. And she recounted this story to her dad, you know, who right away said, well, you need to start carrying a firearm. And she was like, dad, I’ve I don’t know if that’s my answer, but she was, what do I do? Because so often putting the car seat in the car, my is to everything and you can’t help but you’re having to bend over. You’re in a very vulnerable position. And one thing that she mentioned too is, you know, if it would’ve just been me, she was, quite honestly, if it had just been me and I before I had a kid, I don’t know if I would’ve noticed the lady following me. And I don’t know if I would’ve even thought about it or had that concern, but she said, now that I have a baby, I went Full Mama bear… and, and I talked about, and funny, ironically we mentioned this in the last episode where we had Robin Sandoval on the show, is that mindset and most women, most parents have no issue going straight to, I will rip your throat out.


I will do the worst things possible because you are not hurting my child. You are not getting close. but when it’s just us as individuals, sometimes that same ferocious attitude goes to the wayside. And I talked to her, I said, but your baby needs you. Your baby needs you to be there, needs you to come home, needs you to come home safe.

Doug: Well I guess I would start with a couple of things going backwards in the story. Nothing happened, however, she was followed through the parking lot. It didn’t go to a negative end point because she was able to provide indicators to the attacker that she was not gonna be an easy target. So it is still important to follow through on a reporting perspective. She did so much right in that process – we talk about the ma bear approach, but in reality what we’re talking about is we tend to be in a heightened state of awareness when we’re responsible for somebody else’s safety. Almost always. She probably noted that she lived in “white” when it was just herself. And you see that a lot of the time. She was already at yellow because she had this wholly dependent being, requiring her to keep her alive. So she has to recognize she did a lot of stuff really right in that moment and can be encouraged by that. And really at the core of what we’re talking about is learning how to do right things naturally, and so that we make ourselves a harder target for folks. 

Kelly: Well, and that’s the way that things really look. You know, what are you looking for? What we talked about with Robin in the last episode is, well, what are some of those pre attack indicators? What are some of those we need to be specific…

Doug: I think, I think the core of the question she lands on in her own after action report on this to herself is, how do I make the outcome an intentional outcome instead of a an accidental outcome? Right? She’s acknowledging that she feels she got lucky in landing where she. Right. And how does she take personal responsibility for that going forward? Right. And you know, there’s, there’s, I, I love cliches because they, they work and you know, there’s, you are your own first responder. Right there, there is nobody that can get to you to help you faster than you can help yourself in that situation. And so, for our listeners out there, taking that personal ownership for saying, okay, let’s learn from this and figure out how do I keep myself safer in these… Starts with that mindset of acknowledging that I’m responsible for myself or I’m responsible for this other person, and not having that be happenstance that you land there, but an intentional choice that every time I walk out of this house, I’m responsible for my own safety, my own security in at least one instance, so that others don’t have to be responsible. Right. I don’t want a police officer to have to respond to protect me in a given situation because I failed to take responsibility for it myself. I don’t want a fire department or an EMS to have to respond to a car accident because I didn’t take responsibility for me and the passengers in it by making bad choices. And so I think it starts with that mindset of, I’m stepping out of this house or I’m living my life. Right? Cuz it doesn’t just start when you leave your. Uh, being responsible for. 


Kelly: Yes. And her and I discussed this as I, and I said, I get it. I totally understand why you felt, well, what am I gonna call and report at the non-emergency line of my local police department? A I. You know, most people don’t realize there is a non-emergency number for their local police department, and I always recommend people put that in your phone.


Doug: But I think something here. Intuition bells are si or it’s sending alarms. You know, I, I think an officer on the other end of the line who gets a call that says, look, nothing bad happened, but here’s a story that I think is important for you guys to know at x, Y, z retailer. As I was leaving, a woman intentionally followed me through the parking lot, paying intense attention to my child. I made multiple changes of direction in the parking lot to determine whether this person was following me or not confirming that they were, and only when I made direct eye contact with them did they turn about and move the opposite direction. There’s somebody who is following people in the parking is enough to catch an officer’s attention and say, okay, that’s, that’s worth seeing. If it’s happened to other people, they may correlate it with other stories they’ve already received. Right? It may help them answer unexplained incidents that have happened that they didn’t know about it. You know, somebody has a purse snatched from a cart, you know? Buggy or whatever you call it, and you’re part of the country, you know, those sorts of things. And, and so by not reporting, you’re kind of depriving a potential piece of a beaker puzzle from, from, from law enforcement out there, and you may be hindering their ability to keep somebody else safe the next time.


Kelly: Right. And I, and I explained that that’s sometimes that needle on the haystack that officers are looking for, and they don’t know what they don’t know. So if is a pattern or if there is an individual who is trying or attempting to commit a crime and they haven’t been successful yet, well then if nobody’s reporting it, then the first time that the crime hap that they are successful in committing the crime is the first going to be a record that there’s going to be any awareness that even some of these behaviors. And how often do we hear, oh yes, they were acting suspicious, but I didn’t want to seem like I was overreacting. And one thing that I hear over and over again is we would much rather have you call and report at the non-emergency line of suspicious behavior then have you not call and end up taking a victim impact statement from you…


Doug: Or from somebody else.

Kelly: Or from somebody else? Yes, because it could happen [00:15:00] to someone else. And if there’s, if they’re starting to see a pattern, then that’s easier to start going, okay, it looks like this is happening every night at dusk, so now we know we’re gonna have someone do an extra patrol or we’re gonna get in touch with this retailer security team. Say, you need to be a lookout for these, these behaviors. You need to be on the lookout, because we’ve now had numerous reports of nothing happening. But suspicious behavior. So why don’t we go take a look. And now she did call that retailer’s management or their frontline, whatever line was public. So it wasn’t like she was calling a security team necessarily. It was that location. And they were kind of, what she felt got the impression was, well what do you want us to do about it? You’re not here. You made it safe. Your baby is safe and. Maybe that person. And so they were kind of discounting her story and I said, well, I… playing cliche devil’s [00:16:00] advocate, there was nothing illegal that that person did.


Doug: But it’s also not their responsibility, right? If you think about it from a retailer’s perspective, their primary responsibility is loss prevention, right? It’s…


Kelly: And to provide a good customer’s experience while you’re shopping.


Doug: But it’s, but it’s not necessarily to do everything possible to keep their potential customers safe on the outer edges of their perimeter, i.e. in, in the parking lot, right?


So they don’t, they don’t deal with traffic accidents that take place in the parking lot. They go to the police.


Kelly: Mm-hmm.


Doug: So in that instance, the retailer, what they rightfully should have done was say, Hey, we would suggest you call the police non-emergency number and report this. Thank you. It may be helpful to them in, in preventing this from happening to somebody else, but their primary focus and the focus of their security teams really is loss prevention.


Kelly: Mm-hmm. And that’s a good point to bring up. Excellent. And that’s what I think. Again, why we wanted to have this podcast is let’s have these [00:17:00] real conversations, because what I was hearing from this woman this morning was frustration. I don’t understand how this process works. I don’t understand what I, what’s the right thing to do, what’s not the right thing to do? Who should I be telling? Who should I be calling and bringing to light? Hey, let’s, let’s get real and. It really comes down to that personal responsibility for your personal safety is you can’t, you should not, your plan should not be to rely on an outside individual or on someone else to protect you. You have to take your personal safety skills, tools, whatever you have to make it your priority, and you have to make it your responsibility to figure out what you feel comfortable doing and what you need to know to increase your personal safety. Make yourself a hard target, as we talked about with Justin Keating.


Doug: There’s a Instagram page who I follow and like a lot, and they will make a t-shirt or stickers that says, “No one is coming. It’s up to us.”


Kelly: Mm-hmm.


Doug: And I think in reality that that’s, that starts, should be the start of this journey, right? That. Starting with that mindset that, okay, I have to be my own self-defense, my own protector, my own first responder. Nobody’s coming. It’s up to me. And then what do I do? I build on that with, understanding pre-attack indicators, situational awareness. How do I look at the world around me? And I think that’s where we, in conversations like this, or in training that Diamond Arrow Group provides, can help women like her specifically say, I’ve started with a question. The question is, how do I take personal responsibility and now how do I go about building that series of skills, that skill set, in order to, do that in a practical way, on a day-to-day basis to protect myself and my family?


Kelly: Mm-hmm. Because the conversation, you know, she mentioned her dad said, “Well, you need to start carrying a firearm.” To which she was like, that’s to, in her mind, that was zero to 120 miles an hour. That was her brain shut down basically and said, “No. I am not there yet, dad. I have so many other things I gotta think about right now.” And she started listening, listing, “Okay, what type of firearm, dad? You know, then with my clothes and I’ve already got my hands full, so what am I supposed to do then?” And those are all great questions that she had….


Doug: Well by the way I don’t disagree with her dad. At one level he’s not wrong but he may be wrong for some situ… Right. And Robin mentioned in that last podcast if you haven’t seen it go back and listen to the episode with Robin Sandoval who is the executive director of a girl and a gun. Even Robin who spins her entire professional life training women on the use of firearms for self-defense would say it’s no talisman. There’s no magic behind a gun and there’s no magic gun to go out and get. It’s about do you need to take care of yourself? And she trains on plenty of other things other than just shooting.

And so I think, you know, he might be right in recommending a gun that may be a tool in the toolbox that she wants at some point in time. But you’re right, this is a long way to get there before she’s ready to be able to carry that tool and use it in a way that’s secure and.


Kelly: and I think society in general we tend to, and I’m guilty of this, I know, want to help somebody by giving ’em an answer. Well just do this, well, you need to start doing this without getting curious first, taking a beat, being like, oh, you know, what do you wanna do? What do you think would help you because we talked about it. She did a lot of things right. So encouraging, Hey, you’re not starting at scratch… And I like to say that a lot of times to women is you may think that I have absolutely no martial art background, no background with firearms. I’ve never been in a physical fight. I’ve never even wrestled. I didn’t have siblings. So all of those things I, I’m starting from scratch and it’s like, actually you’re not.


Doug: Right.


Kelly: You have the basic survival instinct of intuition. You have, you know, your body wants you to stay alive. So we are starting, you know, not from ground zero here.


Doug: She knows how to do it. She already did it successfully in a self-defense situation. And so I think it’s really just making those connections and saying, okay, starting with mindset, what’s next? Okay, how about the importance of watching for behaviors or changes? You know, how do I look for pret attack indicators? What the heck is a pret attack indicator? Right? And so separating the jargon into nugget size bites that can then mean something to an individual on a day-to-day. 


Kelly: And I think one thing she brought up that as a new parent, and for anyone out there who has recently become a new parent or even has gone through that experience, or now all of a sudden found yourself caretaker of someone else’s, especially at that young age, all of a sudden you have a lot more stuff that you need to have with you at all times, and that’s something to consider. Okay, well now it’s no longer I’m gonna get to my vehicle, throw my handbag into the front of the car and get in and lock the door. Now it’s okay, I’ve gotta get the baby in. I’ve gotta, okay, do I put my purse down? What is the order in which when I walk out to my vehicle. I’ve got a shopping cart. I’ve got my handbag, my purse, my diaper bag. I’ve got a baby and a baby carrier all strapped in, and I’ve got shopping bags, items, and then I’ve got the cart. So what would you recommend is the order of securing the items, putting ’em into your vehicle? 


Doug: Baby first right there. Like, so you’ve walked… yes, you’ve spent $300 on groceries, or you went into Target for $60 item and came out with $600 of items. But, in reality it’s just, I know it’s not not personal. Kelly, come on. I’ll talk to Marty about it later. The…


Kelly: Target red card saves me 5% every…


Doug: You go. So, but in reality, stuff is replaceable and you and your child are not. So it a hundred percent has to start with protecting that child or protecting yourself in that situation. And then it goes to, I think, you know, securing your purse, those things that you need, and then everything else follows after that. If you have to jettison your cart, your shopping cart in order to use it as a weapon to protect yourself against somebody, or to create space and distance for yourself in order to get off the X, then use your shopping cart, even if it’s full of groceries, you can get more groceries later. They’re probably not interested in the groceries, but guess what? They may be interested in the groceries. And is a couple hundred bucks worth of groceries not worth you getting out of a situation safely? Certainly it is. So that’s the order I would start with, right? I would secure the baby and look at securing yourself first.


Doug: So the order of importance of, you know, uh, defending yourself is. Number one.You know, communication, verbal de-escalation, getting away, creating space and then, you know, and the, from, from any kind of obstacle that’s in between you and the threats physical movement or physical barrier. And then lastly, if all else fails and the threat is still direct and imminent, then somebody has to do something physical to stop the threat. And that’s generally where the armed citizen is going to have to come in in terms of defending themselves.


Kelly: No, I completely agree. And I think it’s important that people put that in perspective of, you know, what are they doing currently and what, you know,  in their daily tasks. And I think the,the example that you had with the grocery cart and the mom pushing it is really applicable because, you know, there are certain activities that I do [00:24:00] where I, I can’t keep my hands in my pockets. You know, I have a toddler and I’m walking with him or I’m pushing a grocery cart and I have a purse. 


Doug: So the order of importance of defending yourself is number one, communication, verbal de-escalation, getting away, creating space and then from any kind of obstacle that’s in between you and the threats physical movement or physical barrier. And then lastly, if all else fails and the threat is still direct and imminent, then somebody has to do something physical to stop the threat. And that’s generally where the armed citizen is going to have to come in in terms of defending themselves.


Kelly: I completely agree. And I think it’s important that people put that in perspective of what are they doing currently and what in their daily tasks. And I think the example you had with the grocery cart and the mom pushing it is really applicable because there are certain activities that I do where I can’t keep my hands in my pockets. You know, I have a toddler and I’m walking with him or I’m pushing a grocery cart and I have a purse. 


Doug: Right. So I would not do things like necessarily to use my auto car starter and start the car when I’m still a hundred yards across the parking lot and you know, do those sorts of things. 

Kelly: Or unlock all the doors, you know, but, but you know, again, the ans there is no perfect answer every time. I think it’s important to recognize that your mindset has to change to recognize, okay, walking down the street with my toddler, walking next to me is one scenario. Walking out of Target with a grocery cart full of stuff, diaper bag, backpack, child, and a aria, et cetera. I’m literally have my hands tied behind my back, you know, in that sense. So how, you know, those two situations have to be evaluated separately in terms of how would I deal with a threat that comes to it? To, it comes to me, how do I take care of this person or that thing, you know, when I need to, and the threats are gonna come, like, I mean, in a very real sense, a car that’s not seeing you pushing the cart in the parking lot is no different to threat than somebody that’s targeting you to snatch your purse out of the grocery cart. They’re just different angles of threat in the same location, and you have to have thought about how you’re gonna deal with it. 


Kelly: Hmm. One thing I thought of too, and it seems a minute point, but I grab my key, my car keys out, my fob out of my purse when I’m walking out. So before I get to the transition area, I have my car keys either, you know, depending on what clothing I’m wearing, you know, or in a season where it’s cold, so I’ve got a jacket, I’ll put my keys in my jacket pocket, so my hands are still free, but I immediately could access those for unlocking, locking, whatever it may be. versus standing next to my vehicle, digging in my purse, trying to find keys. So that’s something to think about. I like the order of importance that I completely agree/concur with that scenario, or that order. What I do wanna talk to us a little bit more on. If you talk about getting off X using the shopping cart to create space.


Doug: Improvised weapons right? How many people do you know that carry big, heavy stainless steel water bottles all the time but never think of the fact that that water bottle can easily be used as a weapon if necessary to help create that distance or space to get you out of that bad situation. So I think you’re right but again, it has to start with mindset that I’m now responsible. Secondly is building the pattern of awareness or observation around you so that you develop those skills of seeing. Thirdly is building the pattern of orienting yourself to those things. It’s not just enough to know that I’ve got a shopping cart. I’m pushing through and therefore I can use that to push at somebody. But it’s actually thinking through okay so what would I do in this situation? How would I use it to protect myself and to have thought through it? Because you’re not gonna think through it live… 

Kelly: Right. Well and two if, if you are that concerned you could have a scenario in your head that you’ve created saying, if I think I’m being followed in the parking lot I’m gonna say “oh my gosh I can’t believe I forgot to pay for this” and turn around and go back into the store. There’s absolutely no reason that you need to continue on the path that you’re on. If you are feeling I don’t know what I’m gonna do when I get to my vehicle, or I didn’t grab my keys out of my purse before I left the store. So now I know I’m gonna have to rummage for ’em and that’s gonna take me a while and I don’t know if I’m gonna have time. You can always get to safety. That should always be a priority, if you can leave a situation, remove, go back, get back to where there’s more individuals or more people, more of a public setting versus in the dark in a parking lot where you don’t know. Did they park next to you? Have they been watching you since you got there? You know maybe this woman following you is the tale. See is anyone else shopping with you? How aware are you? And really there’s a vehicle waiting, you know, for them to jump. I’ve seen lots of that where it’s like the grab where they’ve got a driver and they’ve got someone else who’s really doing the snatching grab of the purse and then getting out of there, or worse the baby.


Doug: You can ask the store to walk you to the car. I mean, there’s options there. They, I’ve seen instances where somebody’s stopping and saying, why are you following me loudly to the individual, there can be an effective response. It depends, right? So all of those circumstances matter and it depends as much on you and how you are feeling in that situation. Your confidence level. All of the data that’s flowing into it goes into your decision matrix about what’s the best course of action for you to take at that moment. And so she, for her, it worked. In this instance, it was, it caused the individual that was showing undue interest in her to turn and walk away. 


And it resolved the issues, you know, to her satisfaction. She’s al and you will, all of us will always have these questions afterwards of, was it…did I make the right decision? And if you got in the car and you drove away with your child and with all of your stuff and this, you know, and nothing happened, then it was the right decision. 


Kelly: Why do we do that? Why do we second guess our intuition? Why do we then all of a sudden start to feel guilty about a situation that we should have zero guilt about?


Doug: Good. Worried. 


Kelly: Right? “What are they gonna think? What does that other person think of me? What, what if they think I’m a Karen?” You know?


Doug: Right. I mean so at that and you know what at the end of the day promise you there’ll be some instances where that is the response. Right? There was no ill intent in that scenario. And that other person didn’t have visibility into your mindset or brain to know what was going on with you and they may misinterpret that. So what if you ever see that person again maybe you’ll get a chance to apologize to ’em but odds are pretty good you’re probably not and then you still went. 


Kelly: Yeah. I mean I think if you know to your point you said you know I’ve heard people turn around and say are you following me? And if somebody you know has no intentions they just happen to be parked in the same spot whatever. If they’re like no why are you asking? And then if you suddenly feel like Oh my gosh I’m embarrassed. Don’t like again most humans don’t wish ill intent and would never wanna be in that situation you are. And yet we’ve all experienced it. One thing I told her too is I’m like I guarantee there was lots of other people that have had a similar scenario where they felt am I being followed? Am I overreacting? What should I do? And we need to talk about this. We need to talk about the realities of, you know, everyone’s innocent presumed innocent until proven guilty and there’s not much that cops can do proactive if people aren’t breaking the law. Being creepy isn’t isn’t against the law following you you know because then it becomes a he said she said or she said she said situation where I wasn’t following her. I was parked in the same aisle. So you are responsible for keeping yourself and your loved ones safe and mentally walking through well. What would I do in that scenario is gonna help you get ahead. I always say read headlines. You know look at things that happened and say well what would I do if that happened to me? What would I do if I thought I was being followed? And how would I verbalize that? If you feel like you’re being followed, how would you verbalize? How do you know? How would you verbally tell someone? This is why I felt like I was being followed…

You know it could have been misinterpreted as following and instead both of us recognize it just was coincidence throughout this particular interaction. And so the point was though we would’ve also known when it wasn’t just coincidence because there’s enough body reading right? Behavioral indicators the non-verbals that we pick up on that we couldn’t put our finger on and may not be great at describing to the police officer but the police officer also knows how to read those things and knows those things can be real. And so that learning to trust that niggling little voice inside you that says this is a real potential issue here. Now I need to pay more attention, trust that voice and say okay. I know it’s a small detail but it’s something about it is just off enough that I need to now make a different choice than I might’ve made before.


Kelly: So in that scenario that you just shared of your experience in the grocery store, was anything said…


Doug: Yes. We both acknowledged it… 


Kelly: So what, what was said or how did that come up, and how many times did it take…


Doug: Third time running into each other, you know. We will, what is, what’s the saying first? Something like the, I won’t get the saying right, and I should know this by heart, but this first instance is an accident, second is intentional, and third is enemy action or something like that. But basically the concept of are you being followed is determined by multiple contacts separated over time and. right? Simplistically speaking, multiple contacts over time and distance. And so what time, what distance can matter based on this scenario? Right? So in this case, she had multiple contacts in the parking lot over a short distance, but she made changes that forced the person to react to it, that confirmed that this person was making those changes to.


Similarly in this, in this place. We had actually run into each other by the third time. And one of us made a joking comment to the other, and the other made a comment back, you know, in essence about, well, should we just swap lists and go finish the store? Right? And, but which is another way of also ensuring that the non-verbal indicators remain the same, that this person…


Kelly: So one thing that I think is really important, especially when we’re thinking about how to interact with people in a more meaningful way, is to be in the moment and to pay attention. Just like you said, you know, you ran into that person in the grocery store three times. That’s not an intentional action. That’s something that, you know, you can’t control. You can’t control the probability of that happening. But the fact that you noticed it, the fact that you cared enough, um, to say something, that’s a really powerful thing. Just because you noticed. You know, it’s a small gesture, but it can go a long way. So, just interacting in a coincidental way, not in an intentional way. Right? Just let’s that other person know that you’ve paid attention. Like, there’s a lot that’s going on to it, not all of which was thought out in the moment, but which having the right mindset walking in, out in day-to-day basis prepped me for engaging in that.


And it seems a silly little example, you know, talking about running into somebody in the grocery store three times. They’re small, but I’ve lost my kid in grocery stores too, so they’re big.


Kelly: Well, and I’ve had women tell me I was followed in a grocery store, a shopping, you know, a retailer because the person kept showing up in every aisle, but not saying anything, not making eye contact, overtly trying to act uninterested, which is a behavior that’s not normal. And that’s why I wanted, I was trying to draw that out, is well, well, what exactly happened? Is it a joke?


And, and it doesn’t have to be, are you following me? You know, for every, there’s not one size fits all. If humor works for you, I love that. Well, should we just switch lists, shopping lists, and I’ll finish for you, you know, and it’ll be a surprise. What’s for dinner tonight? Don’t know. We’ll find out. You can make it so that it’s not an escalation. You can make it so there’s not an assumption, a not automatic negative assumption you can use. Humor.


Doug: Right.


Kelly: So Jesse hopefully it’s not long.


Doug: Sorry.


Kelly: No, that’s okay. That’s why I saw you moving her was like, okay, I need to end.


Doug: Yeah. Well, I’ve got, because I know she can cut this, this piece out and we’ve got somebody that just showed up at the house, so.


Kelly: Oh no, that’s okay. So, and you know, to wrap up or I’ll just go on from the humor piece, so if you’re good.


Doug: Yeah.


Kelly: So there’s not a one size fits all answer… Humor. If that comes naturally to you, use that and that the other person’s response to your humorous comment is going to tell you more about their intentions. Because if they laugh and they’re like, heck yeah, let’s switch lists, is, you know, your grocery bill’s probably smaller than mine or, I had to get a dozen eggs this week, I don’t see any eggs and yours, I’m taking your shopping cart. Then you can see the sense of humor. The non-verbal is friendly. The banter is friendly. You can evaluate it according to what you’re comfortable with. That doesn’t feel like a threat. Okay? Now, because you’ll probably run into them again, now, you can kind of wave, laugh. Not a big deal, or not even acknowledge them anymore because you’ve already acknowledged the situation that is tens, you know, was a little bit uncertain, but you confirmed there’s no threat.


Whereas somebody with ill intention…. they might get uncomfortable and turn and walk away, or they might just be socially inept and not know what to say to you either. But those are all things that are options, that there is no perfect one answer, one solution. Hey, do this and everything will be fine.


Doug: Right, exactly. There’s not you, you gotta apply your entire decision matrix, you know, using all the information you’ve got as well as the practice you’ve done on it before, moving forward.


Kelly: And what you’re comfortable with. You know, if you’re trying to do something forced, or what somebody prescribed is what you should do, it’s not gonna come across as natural and it might make you look like you’re suspicious cuz you’re so uncomfortable with it.


Doug: And I’d say the male female dynamic will matter too, right? In this particular case, it was to me and another guy, I would’ve changed some things were it, a had, had it been a female. Probably would’ve had my wife be more prominently present next to me if I was going to, engage with humor or things like that.


And the sole point is, there is no one size fits all.


Kelly: Right. Would you have said anything sooner if it had been a female that you kept…you know, would you have done it right away at the…


Doug: It would’ve depended on whether they’d even noticed it yet. 

Kelly: Huh? 

Doug: I don’t know. I would, I would’ve been reading. 

Kelly: Right, right. Which again, it…


Doug: Do you need to? Did I need to diffuse it? No. Sort of thing. 


Kelly: Or address it. No, I think that’s all good to talk about. And you know, I think what we’re talking about and breaking it down, it feels like we’re getting into these really minute details, but I think that’s what matters and that’s what doesn’t get talked about enough is those pre attack indicators or what are the non-verbal cues or what would I say or I was looking for this, did they make eye contact? They did not, were they trying to, because non-verbals are the hardest to fake, non-verbal communication and women have been shown in study after study. Better at looking at tiny micro facial expressions and more accurately connecting them to the emotions that they’re portraying. So basically, we’re better at reading people. Um, and so to trust that and to learn how to articulate that. So actually as we’re wrapping up this episode is that’s the daily habit that I want, um, for this episode, or that I think would be a good one to recommend with it. Learning how to verbalize, how do you articulate, you know, and verbalizing your boundaries, which again, doesn’t have to be like, Hey, get back. Hey, you know, don’t do this, do this. It may be, well, let’s, let’s exchange grocery lists. How are you gonna verbalize things? How are you gonna say things out loud? To call attention to a situation or to address a situation that’s making you uncomfortable. And we’ll put all the takeaways in the episode key for this, for this podcast episode so people can kind of go back. All of you, listeners can go back and review things. Doug and I talked about little nuggets of information and takeaways, but I also actually have a boundary. ebook or workbook that you can download for free from thediamondarrowgroup.com and go through some of these things. There’s question prompts and it’s on physical, emotional, and mental boundaries, you know?…


Doug: I just wanna heighten the need to remember, you are your own first responder right? So to take responsibility for myself and for ensuring that I’m doing everything I can to keep me and my people safe as I go out there. So there’s that conscious decision to have that mindset as you walk out every day. 

And we hope you guys found some useful tidbits in this. We look forward to doing this again. Drop a comment if there’s a topic you want us to hit upon, and don’t forget to like and follow and, you know, do all that good.


Kelly: Right, and please write the show. Don’t be afraid to tell us if there’s things that you wanna hear different or topics like Doug said, if there’s subjects you want us to answer. That’s how today’s op episode came up. As an individual that I was speaking with, a woman said, please talk about this on your show because I need answers and I’m guessing that there’s other individuals out there who have the same questions, so there’s no stupid questions… This show is about having those real conversations about the real to our safety and giving some real advice. So thanks again for joining us. We appreciate you all and make sure to go forward and Thrive Unafraid.